Need a "Revolver Smith" opinion

[8shot]

Took possession of a brand new 686 7 shot with 7" barrel last month. As with any revover I take possession of I examine them before any actual firing.

In this case I attempted to check the cylinder timing with my standard .340 diameter range rod. The range rod would only side in until it reached the threaded area of the frame. This would indicate (to me) that the barrel was torqued on excessively causing the barrel to collapse in the threaded area.

I have installed several barrels on target revolvers and never experienced this condition. Have not fired this revolver to-date but would expect poor accuracy once a bullet is forced through the barrel.

Sent the revolver back to S&W for warranty repair and it just came back today. The barrel was not repaired, the range rod still will not pass through the barrel to test the cylinder timing. It is the same barrel because it has a puck mark where someone with a drive touched the frame installing the front lock pin.

Wanted some feedback before I send it back again...their slip reads that the "yoke" was repaired? Have read where some S&W handguns are returned several times under warranty and was hoping that my repair would be completed on the first attempt.

The picture indicates where the range rod stops after inserting it from the front. I mean it "stops at that point" no way that it will pass through probably short of using a hammer

 

[stansdds]

Certainly sounds like the barrel, instead of having the face set back just a tiny bit, was over-tightened in order to get the revolver finished and out the door. How bad can this affect accuracy? Depends upon the bullet and how bad the constriction really is. Since such a thing does not affect the safety or reliability of the firearm, getting S&W to replace the barrel may be difficult and require a lot of patience and shipping labels.

 

[Protocall_Design]

If you have the tools and knowledge to install (change) barrels, you may be able to fix this yourself. When you remove the barrel from the frame, it will normally rebound to the original size. With the barrel on a lathe, you can then turn a couple thou. off the back where it butts up to the frame. You can check with the range rod while the barrel is off to see if it goes through. Then put the barrel back on. Torquing it less will not collapse it again.

Obviously, "repairing" the extractor rod and yoke does nothing to address the problem.

 

[8shot]

Thanks Warren

Just seems wrong that when you pay nearly $900 for a revolver it should be good to go. I'm sure I could fix as you describe...but there goes my warranty.

I was considering using it at the Bianchi next month and potentially buying one of your revolver mover bases. I do have (2) K frames ready to go with the mover bases I made (as I mentioned).

Haven't fired a round yet in preparation and don't have time for the 686 right now.

Can't believe they send revolvers out in this condition..there is no doubt that 50 yard accuracy would be affected...and I can't monitor cylinder timing properly.

 

[Protocall_Design]

You will not be able to shoot a group with any kind of ammo when the barrel is like that. It swages the bullet smaller, which then is not tightly controlled the rest of the way through the barrel.

Yes, it's wrong to send them out like that, but they've been doing it for 70 or 80 years, at least. If you don't have a lathe, but can get the barrel off and send it to me, I'll trim it back and return it. The S&W warranty doesn't seem to mean much, as you might have guessed by now.

 

[armorer951]

Could also be excessive lead deposits in the area just ahead of the barrel extension. Is the barrel clean?

 

[8shot]

Thanks Warren...I may just try them one more time (I do have a couple of lathes). In any event I'll see you next month to show you my projects.

Ed

 

[Pig Hunter]

Many smiths that used to work on Smiths don't anymore because too many frames cracked when they tried to remove barrels that were torqued on way too tight. If you try to fix it correctly you run the real risk of cracking the frame.

 

[8shot]

Could also be excessive lead deposits in the area just ahead of the barrel extension. Is the barrel clean?

Trust me....it's the barrel. BTW the forcing cone specs 100%

 

[armorer951]

Sorry, reading your thread title, I thought you were asking for opinions. I didn't know you you were certain about the cause.

 

[Protocall_Design]

Many smiths that used to work on Smiths don't anymore because too many frames cracked when they tried to remove barrels that were torqued on way too tight. If you try to fix it correctly you run the real risk of cracking the frame.

Those are mostly J frame and some K frames. L and N frames have enough meat that they are pretty safe to change barrels on.

 

[Protocall_Design]

Thanks Warren...I may just try them one more time (I do have a couple of lathes). In any event I'll see you next month to show you my projects.

Ed

Hi Ed-
I'll be very interested to see what you have!

 

[8shot]

Sorry, reading your thread title, I thought you were asking for opinions. I didn't know you you were certain about the cause.

Thanks I am certain about the cause (torqued barrel)...my concern is if I have a case that should be corrected by a S&W warranty or is it a situation that they can brush off.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Only one way to find out. All I can add is that cylinder timing (more accurately termed "carry up") isn't checked by a factory trained armorer with a range rod . . .

Thanks I am certain about the cause (torqued barrel)...my concern is if I have a case that should be corrected by a S&W warranty or is it a situation that they can brush off.

 

[Hondo44]

The barrel has what's known as "thread choke" (if I recall correctly).

There are bullets that you can buy coated with grit specifically for "lapping" the tight spot by loading and shooting them per instructions included.

I don't think you'll ever get S&W to fix that problem. It's not normal but not an uncommon problem.

 

[chief38]

I'd call S&W, ask for a Supervisor or senior management person who can get it done right for you. Even if you are successful at fixing it yourself it can give them the perfect excuse to walk away from your lifetime warranty. If you accidentally damage the gun or barrel while repairing it, you're gonna be on your own. NOPE - get the right person on the phone, explain the situation and let them fix it right. If they are incapable of doing that then ask for a new Revolver or your money back.

 

[CALREB]

Ive shot PPC guns that had some restriction and still grouped well at 50 yards. Although they might have shot better without the restriction. Most were older used guns that guys picked up to shoot. They would pass a "service" 38 rod but not a "match" rod. I have seen a LOT of regular revolvers that would not pass a match rod. Most probably not shot over 25 yards or for group so it wasn't an issue.
I would shoot it and see how bad it grouped so you could explain it to SW or tell them you felt it was unsafe and you wanted it fixed. I doubt they will do it on their own without some complaining about that specific issue, if it passes whatever checks they perform. Good luck.
I shot some Bianchi Cups in the early 80s, always think about going back some day. Don't know what it's like now but was a classy event back in those days.

 

[CALREB]

Ive shot PPC guns that had some restriction and still grouped well at 50 yards. Although they might have shot better without the restriction. Most were older used guns that guys picked up to shoot. They would pass a "service" 38 rod but not a "match" rod. I have seen a LOT of regular revolvers that would not pass a match rod. Most probably not shot over 25 yards or for group so it wasn't an issue.
I would shoot it and see how bad it grouped so you could explain it to SW or tell them you felt it was unsafe and you wanted it fixed. I doubt they will do it on their own without some complaining about that specific issue, if it passes whatever checks they perform. Good luck.
I shot some Bianchi Cups in the early 80s, always think about going back some day. Don't know what it's like now but was a classy event back in those days.

 

[Hondo44]

Guns with the choke point lapped do improve in accuracy.

 

[Hapworth]

...All I can add is that cylinder timing (more accurately termed "carry up") isn't checked by a factory trained armorer with a range rod . . .

To my understanding, indexing (alignment of charge hole with bore in proper "time") uses range rods to check, and is -- along with carry-up -- one of several interrelated functions that constitute "timing" and each must be checked and confirmed for a revolver to be considered "in time".

You can have a revolver that carries up but does not index, and so fail to time.