Need advice about Rimrock .38/.357 SWCHP bullet

[rhodesengr]

Red wax ring is the lube , no additional needed .

Cool. Thanks. That is what I thought. Guys above were talking about lube.

 

[jem102]

This is reportedly the bullet Buffalo Bore uses for their +P .38 load. I get slight leading in a 2.75" 66-8 but then it stabilizes. I have not fired more than 20 in a shooting session at a moderate pace. They are hot even for a +P but very accurate. I bought a several hundred from Rim Rock and plan to work up a load at 1,000 FPS in .357 cases and #5 will surely be one of the candidates but there are others especially HS-6.

 

[rhodesengr]

This is reportedly the bullet Buffalo Bore uses for their +P .38 load. I get slight leading in a 2.75" 66-8 but then it stabilizes. I have not fired more than 20 in a shooting session at a moderate pace. They are hot even for a +P but very accurate. I bought a several hundred from Rim Rock and plan to work up a load at 1,000 FPS in .357 cases and #5 will surely be one of the candidates but there are others especially HS-6.

That is exactly what I am doing. I've looked at the powder burn rate charts and AA5 and HS6 are right next to each other. But the data for HS6 is more like 1000 to 1100 fps while AA5 and AA7 are both more like 1100 to 1200 quoted. I figure my actuals will be less, hence my mid-rang AA5 experiment. I'll see how the first try works tomorrow.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

I will go back and read all the latest posts, but...

The diameter of a cast lead bullet can be crucial when loading for accuracy at X yards...

The velocity of a cast lead bullet can be crucial when one is concerned about expansion for SD purposes...

The concept of acceptable recoil can be crucial... ETC.! (et al, ad nauseum)

No perfect load, powder, bullet, primer combination exists simply because YOUR ACTUAL RESULTS MAY (will!) VARY.

If you want perfect accuracy, or perfect expansion, or perfect velocities, then develop YOUR PERFECT LOAD FOR THEM. Just don't expect to get them all in one simple recipe. And don't expect the powder manufactures, the bullet manufacturers, or the primer manufactures or someone on the internet (or on this forum) to just give it to you: it DOESN'T EXIST! That's not the way it works.

Have Fun! Be Safe! Cheers!

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I didn't realize you were talking about a GC bullet. They can handle more pressure.

It's not the speed of the bullet, it's the pressure you need to think about. There is a formula but gas checks change the numbers. Still, the pressure needed to generate 1,100 fps is probably excessive and possible over the +P limits.

Sorry for the mistake...

 

[STORMINORMAN]

...and very likely nowhere even near the lowest 357 Magnum pressures you can find...

"Published". Whatever that really means...?

Cheers!

P.S. I guess what I'm trying to convey is that JUST BECAUSE there is material in print that calls for "X grains of Y powder", there are still misprints, transposed numbers or just plain bad data to deal with.

 

[rhodesengr]

...and very likely nowhere even near the lowest 357 Magnum pressures you can find...

I guess I will find out where I'm at tomorrow. I have both the 158gr SWC and SWCHP with g/c loaded with 8.6gr of #5 in 357.

My goals are not really all that difficult. Just want a speed between 1000 and 1100 out of my particular gun. It is just a project I picked for myself. Maybe ill conceived but the logic makes sense to me. Trying for the claimed Buffalo Bore 38spl +p performance but using 357brass.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Your goal seems both reasonable and realistic, IMHO. Not misconceived. Logical as well.

Probably easily attainable...?

The nice part is you still have some wiggle room in the 357 Magnum cases: just make ABSOLUTELY SURE you don't load THAT MUCH #5 in ANY 38 Special cases by mistake! In your 357 Magnum pistol it probably wouldn't be disastrous, but if loaded in 38 Special cases and then, somehow found their way into a non-Magnum revolver, it could be a very serious situation!

You'll note there is a big pressure difference in Hodgdons +P MAX loads for 158gr bullets (around 6gr. at 19K psi) and the START 357 Magnum load for a 158gr LSWC with 8 gr. @ 37K!

Let us know how your project works out.

Cheers!

P.S. You might consider loading up a few test rounds at 7, 7.5 & 8gr. in your 357 Magnum cases to try out before the 8.6gr. ones: better to be absolutely SAFE & SURE than kind'a sorry...?

 

[STORMINORMAN]

In Handloader magazine #304 Brian Pearce reached 1014 FPS with your bullet in a 6” K38 with a +P .38 spl load of 6.8 grs of AA5.

Well, there's a bit of a difference between 6.8gr in a 38 Special case and 8+gr. in a 357 Magnum case of the same powder (#5) and the same bullet at nearly the same stated velocities...?

Am I missing something: that extra 1.2gr seems like a lot for not much more?

 

[boatbum101]

Your goal is easily reached . Fact that you're using 357 cases makes it so as pressure is not as big a concern . You could in theory reach it with as fast as Bullseye or as slow as AA9 , 2400 , 4227 . I think between 6 to 7grs Unique would do it as would Herco , WSF , WAP, HS6 etc . FWIW I loaded same bullet over VVN340 for a DAV friend . Same ballpark velocity out his 4" Model 19 , is controllable & low flash .

 

[gwpercle]

Thanks, the last few posts are really great.
I have 12 each of both SWC and SWCHP all loaded up and will be testing tomorrow. 8.62grains AA#5

A couple of you mentioned lube. I have not read up on that yet. Sorry if its a newb question but where does the lube go? I see most of my bullet types have a ring of "wax" just below the crimp groove. I assume that is to help seal the bullet in the case? Should I be putting more lube on the base of the bullet before pressing in?

Edit: I watched some bullet lube videos on Youtube. Seems my commercial bullets are already lubed (that colored ring of wax). Do I need to add more lube that what they come with?

The "wax" ring below the crimp groove is conventional bullet lube . The old school stuff still works for me . You do not need to add any additional lube ...unless you experience barrel leading ... but for now use them as lubed with wax .
Coated or Powder Coated is the new school lube , it takes the place of "wax" lube and is supposed to cure all ill's , heal the sick and raise the dead and cook supper for you (I'm only joking ) ... but coated bullets are a good option .
Commerical usually come lubricated or coated and sized .
For use in 38 Special / 357 magnum .358" is the standard size and is satisfactory 99% of the time .
If you slug your barrel ...take that dimension and add .001" or some go .002" over bore diameter . I'm a .001" guy ...
I've used both .357" and .358" size in a S&W model 64 and a Ruger Blackhawk and do not see any difference in accuracy or leading in my two revolvers .
Gary

 

[martyd]

If you plan on shooting a lot of cast bullets - Slug Your Barrel - get the correct size of your bore then use that size cast bullet.

I did this with my Mod 58 & 57. Leading almost went away totally & accuracy improved dramatically.

 

[alwslate]

Well, there's a bit of a difference between 6.8gr in a 38 Special case and 8+gr. in a 357 Magnum case of the same powder (#5) and the same bullet at nearly the same stated velocities...?

Am I missing something: that extra 1.2gr seems like a lot for not much more?

It was an article on the .38 spl with std and +P loads. The 6.8 grs was +P and all loads were pressure tested by Brian. If he says they don’t exceed +P pressures then they don’t. Handloader magazine #304. Research it yourself. Comparing Brian’s actual test data in real guns compared to any manual’s data is apples to oranges

 

[STORMINORMAN]

It was an article on the .38 spl with std and +P loads. The 6.8 grs was +P and all loads were pressure tested by Brian. If he says they don’t exceed +P pressures then they don’t. Handloader magazine #304. Research it yourself. Comparing Brian’s actual test data in real guns compared to any manual’s data is apples to oranges

I really wasn't questioning your post (or the article)... Just trying to point out the seeming (at least to me?) contradiction: as previously opined, "published" load data is just something somebody wrote down at some point in time. Usually a good place to start the process when considering the sources: I believe someone recently and most elequantly pointed out the difference between just "reloading" & "handloading".

IMHO, of course.

Cheers!

P.S. If that 6.8gr of #5 with a 158gr bullet in a 38 Special case develops 1014fps (edited for accuracy) safely, why go higher in Magnum brass? Next time I get out my revolver dies I'll just have to give it a try...Not sure that I have a need to go even that high?

Of course, I'm going to have to work up to it: better to be Safe a little later than Sorry sooner?

 

[alwslate]

Cheers!

P.S. If that 6.8gr of #5 with a 158gr bullet in a 38 Special case develops 1064fps safely, why go higher in Magnum brass? Next time I get out my revolver dies I'll just have to give it a try...Not sure that I have a need to go even that high?

Of course, I'm going to have to work up to it: better to be Safe a little later than Sorry sooner?

The velocity Brian got in a 6” K38 was actually 1014 FPS with the 38+P load. And as to the real spread between the 38 and 357 my Speer #13 manual shows a maximum load of 10.0 grs of AA5 with a 158 gr jacketed bullet in the 357 and 6.6 grs with their soft 158 gr swaged lead SWC in 38 +P. That’s a bit more of a realistic spread I would think

 

[rhodesengr]

The results are in. First I shot six commercial rounds as a control. These were Federal AE38K. The box says 130gr and 900fs.
My average was 887fps so I think that is very close. Full chrono report.....

Next I shot six of my lower cost builds I will use for practice.
158gr LSWC in 357mag brass, 8.62gr of AA#5, and Federal SP primer. I was trying for 1100 actual with load data suggesting 1150 or so. The average was 1114 with a standard deviation of 13fps. I think I pretty much nailed it.

Then I shot 12 of the same load using the 158gr g/c LSWCHP. The average was 1110fps with a standard deviation of 25fps. So basically the same as the cheaper bullet.

I'd say my experiment was a huge success. Both loads produced a PF of 175 so the cheaper bullet will feel the same as the expensive bullet for practice. Some of the talk about leading with the soft HP bullet had me a little worried but as far as I could tell, I didn't see any. I think the speed is maybe just a little hot for what I want as a long term load to make so I will back down to 8.3 gr and see what I get why that. I appreciate all the other powder ideas but seems like AA#5 is working and it's available. The only other thing I'd like to try in the near future is a "full power" 357 load with a 125gr xtp bullet which I also have. I will get Enforcer powder for that. The loads I shot today were average PF of 175 and they were easy to shoot with my 686 comp. Full speed with Enforcer and a 125xtp would be PF=208. I see a lot of posts suggesting the full power 357mag loads are hard on recoil. I want to see for myself

Muchos Gracias to everyone who helped me here.

 

[bronco45]

rhodesengr, Thank you for your research and good work. I've been shooting the 158 SWC over 9.0 of AA#5 and it is a sweet spot. Appreciate your chrono work, what barrel length is your 686? I've been shooting my load out of a 3" bbl.

 

[rhodesengr]

It's 6 inches.

 

[gwpercle]

Thanks for the great post ...
A while back I scored a lb. of Acc #5 had never used it but dealer had a shelf full and a sale .
I tried Acc #5 with 6.0 grs and the pressure was too low ...now going to bump it up to 7.5 grains and maybe 8.0 grains ...looking for a 38 Special +P+ (950-975 fps) to shoot in a Ruger Blackhawk 357 magnum .
Your testing has shown me the way !
Thanks,
Gary

 

[rhodesengr]

Thanks for the great post ...
A while back I scored a lb. of Acc #5 had never used it but dealer had a shelf full and a sale .
I tried Acc #5 with 6.0 grs and the pressure was too low ...now going to bump it up to 7.5 grains and maybe 8.0 grains ...looking for a 38 Special +P+ (950-975 fps) to shoot in a Ruger Blackhawk 357 magnum .
Your testing has shown me the way !
Thanks,
Gary

What bullet?
Do you have access to the Western Powder Handloading Guide V8? There is a large number of loads listed there and what I am basing my loads on. Here is a link that is currently working
https://ramshot.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/WesternPowdersHandloadingGuide8.0_WEB.pdf

I can see that a lot of the data is also ported to the Hodgdon site but I think the display in the V8 pdf lets you scan a lot of load very quickly.

I can tell you that I have run as low as 5gr of AA#5 in 38spl with a 158gr LRN bullet. That was for an event where we shoot close to steel plates so no jacketed bullets are allowed and low loads are encouraged. I chrono'ed that load at 700-ish fps.

I didn't know much about pistol powders when I first bought AA#5 but turn out it is pretty useful powder. Medium burn rate and has published loads for many bullets. More importantly, it seems to be more readily available than some other popular powders.

I've now been looking at data for the full spectrum powders and for the medium power stuff, I have not reallyt found anything I'd wish I bought instead. I did find that AA#5 will not drive a full power 357mag round (meaning 125gr at 1500FPS or 158gr at 1200-1300fps). I picked up some Enforcer and built some 125gr rounds with it last night. I want to "experience" full power 357mag and see how I like it. Testing this weekend.

For my slower 158gr 357's, I tried dropping down from 8.6 to 8.4 grains of #5. It was still around 1100fps so my next try is at 8gr. Just seems like 1000fps should be enough for that "FBI load" type round.