Well, since no one else has bothered----or maybe I missed it, this gun is on the "Club Gun List"---a .45 Army.
Ralph Tremaine
Ralph Tremaine
Need help identifying a S&W DA 45
- Thread starter jima1647
- Start date
Ralph
You must be looking at Hallstrom's list. The Call book has it listed as a ".45 HE B 6.5" ch for Gov. Auto". No mention to .45 Auto.
Don
I don't know what list I looked at-----just said SWCA Lists-----and 45 Army (or some such)------and as you said, no mention of 45 Auto.
Ralph Tremaine
Okay, I went back to the lists in the "Downloads" file. The list I looked at is that noted as (originally) provided by "Mr. Ed" (Cornett)---also noted as that prepared by the factory Service Department-----according to Jinks. It's the (much) longer of the two available------several hundred guns. I counted them once upon a time. 700+/- comes to mind, but that's from memory only of a bunch.
That said, I (and anybody else with the sense God gave a peanut) defer to you when it comes to Club Guns-----you being the only one I know of who's "been there and done that"!!
Ralph Tremaine
Okay, I went back to the lists in the "Downloads" file. The list I looked at is that noted as (originally) provided by "Mr. Ed" (Cornett)---also noted as that prepared by the factory Service Department-----according to Jinks. It's the (much) longer of the two available------several hundred guns. I counted them once upon a time. 700+/- comes to mind, but that's from memory only of a bunch.
That said, I (and anybody else with the sense God gave a peanut) defer to you when it comes to Club Guns-----you being the only one I know of who's "been there and done that"!!
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Folks must realize that Don is pretty much an expert on most things S&W including where their dumpsters are located. When it comes to club guns, he is the most knowledgeable person on the planet and probably owns more than any other collector. Add to that that he has been the Assistant Historian to Dr. Jinks for some years now and so if Don shares some tidbit of information you can pretty much take it to the bank.
Starting in July 1958..
ALL Handguns regardless of caliber mfg'd or imported into the USA were required to be serial#'d.
ALL CF caliber Rifles mfg'd and imported into the USA were also required to be ser#'d
ALL .22RF cal Long Guns and ALL shotguns (longguns) were exempt from ser#'g though mfg'r could ser# them if they wished and many did.
These rules were part of some changes in the Fed Firearms Act 1938 voted on and passed by Congress in Jan 1958.
They went into effect in July of 1958
When the GCA68 passed and took the place of the FFA1938, the GCA68 called for the ser#'g of the .22RF cal Longguns and of the Shotguns (longguns) that had been exempt under the FFA1938.
So to say that the GCA68 required that ALL firearms be ser#'d is a bit misleading in it's statement as 2 of the 4 catagorys had already been required to be ser#'d since 1958.
Any firearm produced before the laws requiring a manf'rs applied ser#, and that do not have a mfg's appied ser# are not illegal/contraband.
They were legal when mfg'rd, they are still legal now.
They are simply listed as 'NSN' (No Serial Number) in FFL Transactions.
That does not mean to say that REMOVING a manufacturers applied ser# from a firearm that was made before that firearm was by law required to have one is OK.
The Fed Firearms Act of 1938 in it's orig form made Removing, Altering or Obliterating a Manufacturers applied serial number on a firearm a Federal Felony. Also to possess, sell, transfer same.
FWIW it was common work in sporterizing Military 1903 Springfield rifles in the 1920's and '30's.
Griffin & Howe among the best at it in the USA. They would at customer request remove the Military markings on the front ring of your '03 INCLUDING the Ser#.
A G&H 'Rifle#' was usually added discreetly.
That until the FFA'38. Then G&H added a note to their custom gunsmithing brochure stating due to changing federal regulations they would no longer be able to supply that work
So to remove the ser# from a firearm made in 1903 for example when it appears that there were no laws that required manufacturers to apply same to their products, became a Felony to do so in 1938.
That continues to hold tru today with wording the same in the GCA68 and nearly the same or same State Law in most every State in the Nation as well.
An 'Un-Numbered' frame MAY be just that. One that the factory never did ser#. A blank one.
Many R&D Dept guns from most any mfg'r are made up on unser#'d frames. Those are experimental of course and not meant to be sold.
But it may be a frame like this Club Revolver where the factory applied ser# as been removed from and the area carefully refinished.
Why would someone do that? I don't know other than to hide what was the orig ser#.
Yes some other parts are #'d but we wouldn't be talking about a smart person necessarily trying to hide something.
A lab test can usually tell the truth..
Just looking at it and Guessing can give you the answer you want either way.
That's a handy way of fact finding.
I hope there is something in the Factory records and/or some other paperwork mentioning the lack of the frame #'g that can bring the revolver and 'Club Guns' together.
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So all that said, since this is assumed to be a 1917 Army and we know that those guns did have serial numbers on the butt below the lanyard ring. Since the gun in question is presumed to be a club gun or IIRC a gun made up from parts and not during a normal frame run.
Is it not possible that a numbered (albeit not federally required yet) frame was put together with some 0 numbered other parts and since they were designated 0251, the number on the butt was removed so as not to conflict with the "club gun" numbering.
Again since this predates any government regulations regarding this situation and the gun was assembled prior to said regulations, is this not a moot discussion? There is also the possibility that either the gun never had a number or that the factory removed it thus eliminating any liability on any subsequent owner?????
Is it not possible that a numbered (albeit not federally required yet) frame was put together with some 0 numbered other parts and since they were designated 0251, the number on the butt was removed so as not to conflict with the "club gun" numbering.
Again since this predates any government regulations regarding this situation and the gun was assembled prior to said regulations, is this not a moot discussion? There is also the possibility that either the gun never had a number or that the factory removed it thus eliminating any liability on any subsequent owner?????
StrawHat
Member
A lot of speculation going on in this thread. I hope the letter arrives in a timely fashion and clears things up for all involved.
As for whether or not any S&W revolver “could” have gotten out of the factory without a number, your proof “could” have to stand up in court!
Kevin
As for whether or not any S&W revolver “could” have gotten out of the factory without a number, your proof “could” have to stand up in court!
Kevin
Received the following information on my gun.
It appears to be a 2nd model 44HE fitted with a 45ACP Barrel and Cylinder.
It was shipped June 1, 1917 to Roy D. Jones. Mr Jones worked for Smith & Wesson in Ballistics and Service. Thanks for all the help offered by this Forum, based on some of the questions of legality of the gun I sold the gun.
It appears to be a 2nd model 44HE fitted with a 45ACP Barrel and Cylinder.
It was shipped June 1, 1917 to Roy D. Jones. Mr Jones worked for Smith & Wesson in Ballistics and Service. Thanks for all the help offered by this Forum, based on some of the questions of legality of the gun I sold the gun.
StrawHat
Member
I am glad the letter arrived. Would you post a copy of it. June 1, 1917 is 5 months before the factory started filling the government contract. I am not sure when that contract was awarded.
Kevin
opoefc
US Veteran
FWIW - If you look on the S&W "Zero Gun" list you will find that .45HE, serial # 0251, is listed as " Dec, 14, 1916, and as Model .45 Army ", Ed
