Need help with ammo for 629

[NE450No2]

Why Hard Cast, over Jacketed Bullets, for bear protection, or BIG big game hunting???

Simple answer PENETRATION. If you are a student of calibres, and bullets for hunting, you will see that in the history of Man and Gun, Under Penetration has caused most of the problems.

For protection against humans this can also be true.
Over penetration is considered to be a big concern to think about, but actually, when 85% or so of the shots fired in Human to Human gunfights are misses, why worry about the 15% that do hit???

You must have enough penetration. And the bigger the hole the better.
If you can get an expanding bullet to penetrate deep enough so much the better.

What if every bullet expanded the size of a soft ball and gave deep enligh penetration, that would be great...

However there have been times where a Jacketed 44 Mag bullet did not give enough penetration on wild hogs, sricking in the gristle plate.

I shot a cow elk in the head once, side brain with a 240gr Federal factory HP. I did not get complete penetration.
I also shot a cow elk in the head, again side brain, with a 240 Hard cast bullet over 22 gr of 2400, and got complete penetration.

If a bear, black , brown, or Griz, and if you miss the head, but hit the collar or shoulder bone, most likely the jacketed bullet will be stopped buy the bone, or mushroomed and deflected.

There is a chance that a hard cast will break the bone and penetrate into the chest cavity.

Same thing if you hit a rib or the sternum.

IMHO, a heavy hard cast bullet is a better choice, giving you a more likely chance of survival.

 

[TDC]

Pictures removed

 

[C J]

IMHO, a heavy hard cast bullet is a better choice, giving you a more likely chance of survival.

Very sound advice. And the reasons for this are laid out very well in TDC's post too. Bear skulls are very thick and hard. Penetrating one with any bullet is tough. The thing is that's about the only target you get from a charging bear. From what I understand though, the best shot is either in the nose or the mouth. If you put the bullet in the bear's mouth there is only a 1/8 plate of bone to get through in order to hit the brain. The trouble is a charging bear bounces it's head up and down as it runs. That makes for a very tough shot. I know lots of people like to think that the best thing to do is to get off as many shots as possible but the crazy laws of this country could mean a life hardly worth living if they think your dead bear wasn't really a threat. In other words you have to wait until it gets very close because they do bluff charge a lot.

So what's my strategy? I'm going to wait until the very last second to shoot because you really will only have time for one shot anyway unless you want to spend a few years in prison and give up everything you own to the state. I'm going to wait until I can stick my .44 magnum right in that bear's mouth almost and then fire. I think you have the best chance of actually hitting the mouth by doing this. I know it sounds risky and crazy but anytime you have a charging bear the odds of knocking it down aren't that great unless it's charging someone else and you can get a shoulder shot in.

I actually saw this technique used in a move called "African Safari" a few decades back. I could be wrong about the title. It's close but it's been a long time for this old geezer to remember it perfectly. The guy shot a charging lion at about 3 yards. The lion knocked him for a loop and landed on top of him but he was alive and the lion was dead. He actually hit the lion in the spine and snapped it in two. But that guy was totally crazy. I watched him slap a black mamba around for 5 minutes in that movie too. He'd smack it from one side then smack it from the other side. I think the guy had a death wish or something. I haven't seen that movie for many years. It's way too anti-PC for today. No tv station would show it any more than they would show old Amos and Andy reruns. But hey I just did a search and found it online. You can watch the movie on this web page.

 

[bsms]

There are two separate questions on this thread.

1) What will give the biggest bang without blowing up a 629?

2) What is the best round against big bears or other dangerous game?

They are very different questions.

The guys I knew who worked in brown bear country carried 375 H&H Magnums, not revolvers. Even a 30-30 will deliver 1500-2000 ft-lb, and I wouldn't consider a 30-30 to be enough gun for me in brown bear country. And yes, bullet construction is probably more critical than ft-lbs of energy.

As for biggest bang...I'm 53. I'm past asking, or caring about the answer. I guess you could keep increasing the load until the gun blows up. Then you'll know you went too far. My Model 29 should arrive at the dealer next week. I plan to shoot 750 ft-lb rounds, and sometimes a couple rounds of the 900-1000 ft-lb loads. When I carry it, I'll probably use 44 specials at 400-500 ft lbs. If I run into a Bad Guy who can shrug off that, it probably isn't my day.

But for "Big Bang" and "BA", it would make more sense to me to simply get a bigger, "badder" gun, like the 454...or see if you can blow up a SuperBlackhawk. I'd bet the answer is yes, if you really want to.

 

[bsms]

...I'm going to wait until the very last second to shoot because you really will only have time for one shot anyway unless you want to spend a few years in prison and give up everything you own to the state. I'm going to wait until I can stick my .44 magnum right in that bear's mouth almost and then fire...

OK. Not me. I knew a guy who was mauled by a grizzly. I'll start shooting with a RIFLE (if I have one) as soon as I feel I'm truly in danger.

I don't hunt, and I don't look for danger. If I survive, I'll count on a lifetime of lawful behavior plus entry holes in the front of the bear (and maybe the skidmarks in my undies) to show the JURY that I wasn't hunting the bear, and pretending I felt threatened. Frankly, you couldn't pay me enough to shoot a grizzly with a handgun! If I pull the trigger, it meant I thought I was about to die.

 

[williamlayton]

CJ
If'n you ever get a chance to do it your way, let me be the first to tell you that it was good knownin you.


Reload for the purpose you are looking for---I really don't think you will need to reload but one round, so it won't be expensive.
Blessings

 

[NE450No2]

I have only been charged by one bear, it was one my wife had shot [we were hunting], and she shot it as it charged me.

I did have a black bear climb the ladder of my tree stand and put his nose on my boot.

I have had a black bear sneak up to with in 5 feet of me before the wife saw it. We were eating lunch glassing for black bear. She was setting about 8 feet to my right and when looked over to me to say something, she saw the bear about 5 feet to my left. I had a 375 H&H Mag setting on my legs facing the bear, but when I grabbed it and raised it up the bear took off dwon the mountain. If he had come toward me I could have fired one shot from the hip, and then the rifle would be useless. I might have been able to get to my handgun, and shoot him off of me. A handgun gives you a chance.

We had a Griz sneak upon us, about 10 feet from her before it started popping its teath. I was about 10 feet from her. I almost shot that one with my double rifle but when I raised to rifle to aim, I hollered for her to lay back, the bear huffed and popped his teath a few more times and then ran off.

We were about 40 yards from camp. He had gone into camp and crushed our tent. He did not damage anything else, we had our food hanging in a tree.

We saw 6 other Griz bears on that same trip, we were backpack hunting black bear, 2 at a distance, we stumbled upon 2 within 35 yards or so, and one evening we had 2 Griz, a mother and her fairly grown young one, come into camp. They cane to within 10 yards, and then I hollered and they ran off.

We always try to have rifles with us in bear country.
However we always carry 44 Mags, as if a bear does knock you down your rifle will be useless. A powerful handgun might save your live.

I have spent a lot of time in bear country, NW Montana, in Idaho, Alaska and in Canada [no handgun in Canada, I carried a double rifle and a Randall Mod 14. I used to be a butcher, so I know where to "stick" something.
Again the knife would give me a chance. I killed a 483lb [weighed before gutting] black bear in Canada at 12 yards with one shot from a 9,3x74R double rifle, 286gr Nosler Partition. He was DRT at the shot.

As CJ has stated you need to wait until you know your life is in danger. None of those bears thatcame close to us showed signs of agression, except maybe the one that was popping his teeth...

I think if a bear was to charge me I would shoot at about 10 yards, maybe 15. It would depend if the bear and I had been in a face down and I thought he might be doing a false charge. If he just came busting out of the brush, I would be inclined to shoot at 10 to 15 yards as stated above.

I have shot a few elephants, four of them at six yards or less, all with a double rifle, and I was charged by a Gorilla from twelve yards and I killed him at six yards, with a 458 Win Mag bolt rifle. All were head shots.

When charged, the best advise I can give is to have a good gun, good bullets, stand your ground, and shoot straight.

Black bear kill a lot more people every year than brown or Griz bear.

Whitetail deer kill more people every year than bears do...

I know one guy that was attacked by a wild pig and it tore him up pretty bad. I saw the scars.
Mountain lions, and now even wolves are attacking people.

It is not a bad idea to have a powerful handgun with good ammo anytime you are in the field.

A hard cast will work on a 2 legged varmint as well.

I carry my 44 Mag, or my 475L in a cross draw holster. MY plan is if I am knocked down if I could get on to my back I might be able to use ny feet to try and keep the animal off of me long enough to get to my handgun.
If I am knocked down on my stomach, I still might be able to access my handgun.
I think for field use the crossdraw position is the best. I can get to it while setting, and in bad weather I keep my outer coat unzipped or un buttoned from the botton allowing me to access the revolver.

I wear my handgun 100% of the time, even in camp.

When sleeping in bear country in a tent I wear my handgun in the sleeping bag. If you are attacked when in the sleeping bag, if you are not wearing your handgun, you will never find it.

If you can get your handgun, IN YOUR HAND you stand a CHANCE of survival.

If you cannot, they you are FOOD.

One of the first things a Boy Scout learns is to BE PREPARED.

 

[NE450No2]

Also I do think you can have TOO BIG of a protection gun.

When I hunted a black bear with a handgun, or if I hunt the "brown" ones with a handgun I would use my Freedom arms 6" 475 Linebaugh.

However I do not carry it for animal protection with full power loads.
Why, it kicks to hard for some of the protection shots I might have to make.

Lets say I am on my back an animal on top of me and I have to shoot the gun one handed with my wrist bent. A REAL hard kicking gun might brake my wrist on the first shot. I can shoot a 4" 44 mag from any grip/wrist angle and not be injured, which means I can shoot it multiple times one handed.

Also in a charge, I know I can get off more shots with the 44 Mag.

When I hunt with the 475L as the Primary, I still carry the 44 Mag as well.

 

[DaddyzCrazy]

I just plan on shooting factory loads, at this point. My life and the life of my weapon are both precious to me. No one seems to know the edge at which this pistol becomes unsafe and I'm not about to find out the hard way!!!! I'll just buy me a 700 nitro and giggle like a little girl.

LOL. Thank all for the input. Too bad no one could answer my question though. I'd still like to know the limits of this weapon. Maybe someday someone will have had pushed one to the edge and lived to tell about it.

On a second note would S&W have any thoughts on the limits of their weapons? I'm sure they had to have destruction tested their products as a safety thing????? Wether they'd let the public in one the results is another story??

Darrell.

 

[CWH44300]

TDC- that skull came out very nice

 

[Jitterbug]

Daddy

The limits on the handgun and ammo are set by Smith and Wesson and SAMMI, it's about 36,600 PSI. Ammo makers load up to that pressure range.

The +P type loads that Garret, Buffalo Bore and the like that specifically say NOT FOR USE IN S&W REVOLVERS, MAY go beyond this level of pressure. I say MAY because I don't know for sure if they do, or do not, on the other hand they might run right on the edge of MAX pressure, whatever that number is. I'm somewhat guessing here with the 36,600 psi, maybe it's 38,000 psi.

But, if you wanted to research it, and find out exactly, what max PSI for 44 Magnum is, I'm sure you could find out in a minute or two, Google is your friend here.

Elmer Keith, considered to be the "father" of the .44 Mag. wrote in his Gun Notes, back in the 1960's that his famous load of 22 grains of Hercules 2400, pushed his 250 grain Keith bullet to 33,910 psi. This is often referred to as "Elmer's load" and nowadays is downloaded to around 20.5 to 21 grains with Alliant 2400 in most reloading manuals.

This load gave him 1199 fps from a 4" Model 29.

I get 1207 fps from my 4" 629-6 and a 250 Ledhead Keith bullet with 20.5 grains of Alliant 2400, which I consider to be MY and MY 629-6, max load with that particular recipe and I'm sure the gun is capable of handling many, many rounds of that load before wearing out...my wrist will no doubt go first, it's actually not bad, I've gone as much as 60 rounds in one session, but 18-24 rounds per shooting session is plenty for me.

I also load inexpensive, 240 grain LSWC and run them anywhere from 825-1000 fps and can shoot those all day long, especially those in the 900 fps range. Think .44 Special type loads here, I just use a Magnum case, this make for a very pleasant, accurate easy to shoot load.

To quote Elmer again "I'm a firm believer that pressure in any sixgun should not exceed 40,000 psi, and that pressure is acceptable in only the best Ruger and Smith and Wesson Magnum guns"

In discussing various ammo of the times the 1960's, he said.

"Some shots showed over 53,300 psi which wold soon ruin any sixgun the load was used in"

Smith and Wesson introduced the enhancement package in the 629-3, the dash 3 models and up are supposed to be more capable of shooting the heavy loads, for longer periods of time without undue wear and tear then the earlier guns.

Just to clarify, I don't think it would be a good idea to use ammo that the maker specifically says DO NOT USE IN SMITH AND WESSON REVOLVERS. One of the custom ammo makers, I can't recall which, has a load of a 310 grain bullet that they advertise as 1040 fps from a 4" Smith if I recall correctly, to answer the question of "What is the max load" in a Smith and Wesson 29/629, I'd say there it is. They have better resources then I, so I certainly wouldn't push that envelope in my gun.

I like the 280 grain @ 1150 fps and I consider that to be my max. load.

Hope that helps and I don't mean to come across as any kind of expert, I may be off on a point or two, but as a hand loader I like to have some idea of what I'm working with, and I never exceed published load data for obvious reasons.

TDC: I second that skull, awesome bear, very nice job!

NE450no2: I enjoyed reading of your experiences, Thanks!

 

[NE450No2]

Jitterbug

Your post is spot on. Good info.

The small increase a person might get by loading overly hot loads does just not seem worth it to me. Not only in handguns, but I use that same mind set with rifles as well.

 

[CWH44300]

NE450NO2.....you speak with a strait tongue.....others- Read this as GOOD advice

 

[C J]

Actually Buffalo Bore has gone to great lengths to determine what S&W N frame .44 magnums will stand up to. That's why they sell their reduced recoil loads, because that's what a Smith will take. There are some other .44 magnums around that won't take any more than that either. Most of their ammo is made for the heavy duty Rugers etc..

Plus I have read extensive threads on this board about how much of a load a person can shoot in a 629. They pretty much all came to the same conclusion. That's why I use what I do. It's been a while back but you can probably find the threads searching through my old posts here. There aren't that many of my posts here and most of them were about the 629 and it's limitations. I have a 629-2 so my loads need to be even less than later models can handle.

 

[C J]

CJ
If'n you ever get a chance to do it your way, let me be the first to tell you that it was good knownin you.

The bottom line for this whole shooting a bear when it gets close deal is that bears are incredibly fast and stealthy too. They can be on you in a heartbeat. They don't make much more noise than a cat when they walk. So if a black bear stalks you as food or to get food from you (which happened to me once) they can be on you before you have time to shoot more than once if you have time to shoot at all.

BTW I don't live near any brown bears. I probably wouldn't count on a .44 magnum for those either.

You'd think they were endangered or something. They aren't. Their population is exploding in my part of the world.

The tree huggers get it in their head that if a bear isn't well established in your area then it's still technically endangered. And they have pushed the government to the point that now the gov. will throw the book at you for shooting one and you pretty much have to prove you were doing it in self defense. That means if you shoot it at 30 yards you are likely going to lose everything you own unfortunately. And you might spend time in prison.

They will say a bear will bluff charge right up to a couple of yards away and they say you need to wait that long to see if it will turn away at the last second. The bottom line is they care more about the bears than they do us.

They will tell you that bear attacks are very rare and that only a few people have ever been killed by black bears but what they won't tell you is that in the last decade black bear attacks have skyrocketed to the point that there were more bear attacks in the 2000's than there were in the entire recorded history of bear attacks in the USA.

The reason for this is that black bears are very much on the comeback as far as their range goes. I'll give you a good reason why. A state park about 3 miles from my farm turned lose 500 black bears in one year. Since then we have black bears everywhere in this area where they were very rare before. That's why I have them on my farm and around my house.

The thing about a revolver is that you have a chance to shoot a bear that is already mauling you. You don't need to get a long gun in position and you don't have to worry about a slide not working like you would with a semi-auto. With a revolver you might get off several shots from underneath a bear. And if you can get a shot from that position you have a good chance of hitting something vital.

Trust me I would MUCH rather use my 12 ga. or my 30.06 on a bear but that isn't always practical. If I go work up on the hill clearing brush or cutting wood or whatever I'll keep the 12 ga. on the ATV and the .44 on me. It's hard to clear brush with a shotgun in one hand and a machete or whatever in the other hand.

There are reasons a handgun is a good thing to have with you in bear country. If I lived in brown bear country I'd probably develop a whole different strategy. But I don't live there.

 

[NE450No2]

CJ, your Post is Spot On
Plus, re. bears walking quietly...

I have been in a tree stand, hunting black bears.
I have watched "them" black squirrels walk over the ground below me and they sound like a herd of cattle...

Then a Black bear, or Griz, will walk up, over the same ground, I am watching him, and he makes NO NOISE, NONE, NONE. You will not hear ANYTHING...

Bear and pig hunting are my favorite North American game.

 

[C J]

I've seen big bites taken out of squirrels by bears too. That tells you all you need to know about how bears are at sneaking up on things.

 

[DaddyzCrazy]

Thank you to those who take my question to heart, in a serious contex.

Jitterbugs I can't thank you enough. I'm new to this whole big bore thing and have never even seen the reloading process done let a lone know what one is talking about on the subject... I thought I'd pop in here expecting advice such as yours of the informative type but I guess there has to at least one condescending clown in the group that makes a post into a circus. I don't hunt. Don't have the heart to kill. I'm a paper puncher at best. I'm trying to teach my kids that guns are fun and safe. Their not just all about killing. In that contex; I am trying to be responsible and yet have fun with our purchases. I personally thought it would be cool to feel the 'kick' of the ol' dirty harry'd awesome most powerfull handgun in the world..... therefore, i thought S&W forums might be a good place for information. My bad! I'll keep my thoughts and questions to myself from now on. I actually feel a little embarrased that I even thought I could get some serious answers to a question I felt was legitamate. Looks like i made a fatal mistake and will take my stupid questions where I will be treated with a little respect.

I do thank you gentlemen for showing me some respect and expanding my knowledge on the subject. It's a shame a new person can't come here for help though. I hope your jesting makes ya feel like a real man. Again. thank you gentlemen that showed me your respect and tried to put things in a perspective a beginner could understand. I'll not be returning to answer this thread again and i'll just leave it at that. I'll also stick to the reccomendations of factory loads and just enjoy this piece for several generations to come!

Adios amigos!

Darrell.

 

[DaddyzCrazy]

Mods if you wouldn't mind......

Please close this thread; i see no reason to continue it.

Respectfully, Darrell.

 

[C J]

I wouldn't let the flamers get you down. There's always a few of them around. He could have just said that no one really knows just how far you can push you 629 but that isn't really true. The problem isn't that they are going to blow up in your face. Oh they could if you put a monster load in them. But the real problem is that the timing will get messed up and certain 629's are known to start jumping backwards meaning they will move back instead of the cylinder turning the right way which can leave you striking a fired case when you really need a live bullet. That's something that got improved on the 629-3 and on certain 629-2's. Knowing which version of a 629 you have is very important. The info is on the base of the frame behind the cylinder. Open the cylinder and look at the bottom part of the frame that was behind the cylinder if you don't know which version your 629 is. You may have already said this info in this thread. I read the whole thread before but I don't remember whether you said what model your 629 is.

At any rate you're probably best sticking with something like the Buffalo Bore 255 gr. "Reduced Recoil" load for defense against dangerous animals. If you just plan on shooting paper you would be well served to just fire very light loads like .44 Specials. If you are set on shooting magnum ammo you can stick with lighter loads there too.