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Need Light and Red Dot Recommendation.
- Thread starter ThomasWJames
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mscampbell2734
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If your looking for less raw power the Streamlight TLR7 series is a good choice. 500 lumens, single battery, multiple switch options.
And yes training is important. Being able to operate the light effectively and INSTINCTIVELY under stress is important. A certain very large county Sheriffs Department saw a sudden uptick in negligent discharges when they authorized their people to carry lights on their weapons. I read their investigative report and bottom line is NO training was required for deputies to start carrying the light combined with a lax safety policy, finger routinely resting on the trigger, added up to a lot of problems.
And yes training is important. Being able to operate the light effectively and INSTINCTIVELY under stress is important. A certain very large county Sheriffs Department saw a sudden uptick in negligent discharges when they authorized their people to carry lights on their weapons. I read their investigative report and bottom line is NO training was required for deputies to start carrying the light combined with a lax safety policy, finger routinely resting on the trigger, added up to a lot of problems.
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SoCalDep
Member
I’ll disagree a little bit here. Rather than telling you what works I’ll give you a couple challenges. Find a white wall. Point a 300 lumen light at it and notice how long it takes for your vision to return. Do it again with a 500 lumen light. Do it again with a 1,000 lumen light. You will notice almost no difference in return of night-adapted vision.
Do it in a mirror. You will notice a difference but you will notice they all suck.
Do it in a mirror then illuminate the environment with the different lights. YOu’ll notice an advantage with the 1,000 lumen light.
If I need to see in the dark I need it to stay dark. If I need illumination for threat identification I want it bright. People say don’t use a high lumen light because it “messes up” night vision. That’s a lack of understanding of the logarithmic characteristics of lumen increase and the difference between luminosity and candela (or lux). There’s also a frequent misunderstanding of the physiology of night adapted vision and how the combination of retinol and opsin to form the rhodopsin that allows the rod photoreceptors in our eyes to work as efficiently as possible ramps up as light level drops. While it takes something like 10-30 minutes for the eye to adapt to darkness, once rhodopsin production is ramped up, short bursts of light don’t bring the eye back to zero and there is a quicker recovery than if one was to go from daylight to darkness. Further, while the activation of light (less than we might like to admit - ask a star watcher) can effect night-adapted vision, I don’t care because I’m using light.
People will say that you should burst light rather than leave it on. Maybe - if you don’t know where the threat is and you’re looking for it - or if you’re fighting hordes of evil in scary places where your illumination allows people in other areas to identify your position and engage you. For the home defender and the cop in the VAST majority of circumstances, the problem is the single individual trying to kill you. Bursting/strobing the light gives bad guys opportunities to do stuff in the dark that you can’s see, and it works absolutely against the psychological and physiological needs and desires of our brain and eyes during sudden stress.
I agree that training is important and I think that training is contextual. As much as we all want to pretend we’re CAG or DEVGROUP, most of us are not and their low light tactics don’t necessarily apply.
I’m a huge fan of pressure switches on weapon-lights. When trained correctly they offer no significant increase in the potential for an unintentional/negligent discharge and offer the instinctive activation necessary during stress. We’ve done experiments and I’ve observed thousands of students in low light training, not to mention watching a lot of body-cam videos. If lights using toggle or body switches aren’t activated in advance, they are almost never activated under a sudden stress attack. Pressures switches almost always are. If we think about it it makes sense... We conduct the vast majority of our training and practice in bright lighting conditions. We don’t activate our light the vast majority of those times. Then we expect to be able to do something different under stress in the dark. Nope.
If someone is using a toggle/body switch and wants to be able to use it effectively because they have identified a likelihood that their need for that handgun may be in the dark, they should be practicing to activate the light as a part of their reactive (stress) draw or to activate it as they grab the light. Use of these switches is not intuitive, requires significant training to perform under stress, and is impossible to do effectively for many people due to hand size. It is the rare individual who would even put forth the effort to achieve any level of proficiency. So - not impossible but let’s be real.
I know some people don’t think weapon-lights are necessary or a hand-held light is an advantage (I’m a fan of having both) in leu of a WML. I’ve read too many stories of people shooting their own children, friends, etc. to believe that. I was working this week and heard the radio traffic of units responding for over three minutes to a burglary in progress that turned out to be an “unexpected friend”. If I see that shadowy figure in my hallway I want to identify it before I shoot. To say otherwise is ridiculously negligent. I want as much light as possible to do that. I want the light to come on without me having to think about it and change my grip or manipulate my handgun in a way that I never practice.
A certain report on unintentional discharges was mentioned wherein it was claimed the weapon-light was a large contributor to the problem. That report was a political hit piece and is inaccurate. The numbers were, while not “wrong”, presented in a misleading way to make the light look like more of a problem than it actually was. That department still issues 1,000 lumen weapon-lights and authorizes/encourages pressure switches. The rate of unintentional discharges dropped quickly to pre-striker fire pre weapon-light levels. This was due a little bit to training. It was due mostly to people pulling their head out of their butt and respecting the firearm. Complacency was the issue. While I can’t get into a detailed explanation here, any law enforcement who would like to discuss further can PM me and we can arrange to discuss through official channels.
Do it in a mirror. You will notice a difference but you will notice they all suck.
Do it in a mirror then illuminate the environment with the different lights. YOu’ll notice an advantage with the 1,000 lumen light.
If I need to see in the dark I need it to stay dark. If I need illumination for threat identification I want it bright. People say don’t use a high lumen light because it “messes up” night vision. That’s a lack of understanding of the logarithmic characteristics of lumen increase and the difference between luminosity and candela (or lux). There’s also a frequent misunderstanding of the physiology of night adapted vision and how the combination of retinol and opsin to form the rhodopsin that allows the rod photoreceptors in our eyes to work as efficiently as possible ramps up as light level drops. While it takes something like 10-30 minutes for the eye to adapt to darkness, once rhodopsin production is ramped up, short bursts of light don’t bring the eye back to zero and there is a quicker recovery than if one was to go from daylight to darkness. Further, while the activation of light (less than we might like to admit - ask a star watcher) can effect night-adapted vision, I don’t care because I’m using light.
People will say that you should burst light rather than leave it on. Maybe - if you don’t know where the threat is and you’re looking for it - or if you’re fighting hordes of evil in scary places where your illumination allows people in other areas to identify your position and engage you. For the home defender and the cop in the VAST majority of circumstances, the problem is the single individual trying to kill you. Bursting/strobing the light gives bad guys opportunities to do stuff in the dark that you can’s see, and it works absolutely against the psychological and physiological needs and desires of our brain and eyes during sudden stress.
I agree that training is important and I think that training is contextual. As much as we all want to pretend we’re CAG or DEVGROUP, most of us are not and their low light tactics don’t necessarily apply.
I’m a huge fan of pressure switches on weapon-lights. When trained correctly they offer no significant increase in the potential for an unintentional/negligent discharge and offer the instinctive activation necessary during stress. We’ve done experiments and I’ve observed thousands of students in low light training, not to mention watching a lot of body-cam videos. If lights using toggle or body switches aren’t activated in advance, they are almost never activated under a sudden stress attack. Pressures switches almost always are. If we think about it it makes sense... We conduct the vast majority of our training and practice in bright lighting conditions. We don’t activate our light the vast majority of those times. Then we expect to be able to do something different under stress in the dark. Nope.
If someone is using a toggle/body switch and wants to be able to use it effectively because they have identified a likelihood that their need for that handgun may be in the dark, they should be practicing to activate the light as a part of their reactive (stress) draw or to activate it as they grab the light. Use of these switches is not intuitive, requires significant training to perform under stress, and is impossible to do effectively for many people due to hand size. It is the rare individual who would even put forth the effort to achieve any level of proficiency. So - not impossible but let’s be real.
I know some people don’t think weapon-lights are necessary or a hand-held light is an advantage (I’m a fan of having both) in leu of a WML. I’ve read too many stories of people shooting their own children, friends, etc. to believe that. I was working this week and heard the radio traffic of units responding for over three minutes to a burglary in progress that turned out to be an “unexpected friend”. If I see that shadowy figure in my hallway I want to identify it before I shoot. To say otherwise is ridiculously negligent. I want as much light as possible to do that. I want the light to come on without me having to think about it and change my grip or manipulate my handgun in a way that I never practice.
A certain report on unintentional discharges was mentioned wherein it was claimed the weapon-light was a large contributor to the problem. That report was a political hit piece and is inaccurate. The numbers were, while not “wrong”, presented in a misleading way to make the light look like more of a problem than it actually was. That department still issues 1,000 lumen weapon-lights and authorizes/encourages pressure switches. The rate of unintentional discharges dropped quickly to pre-striker fire pre weapon-light levels. This was due a little bit to training. It was due mostly to people pulling their head out of their butt and respecting the firearm. Complacency was the issue. While I can’t get into a detailed explanation here, any law enforcement who would like to discuss further can PM me and we can arrange to discuss through official channels.
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I’ve cleared plenty of houses and businesses with my 800 lumens TLR1 HL, and 800 lumen Stinger. If there would’ve been 1000 lumen models available when I was buying, I would’ve bought the 1000 lumen model.
I’ve never cleared a building and wished I had a dimmer light.
Streamlight also makes remote switches for the TLR1 lights for M&Ps and Glocks.
I’ve never cleared a building and wished I had a dimmer light.
Streamlight also makes remote switches for the TLR1 lights for M&Ps and Glocks.
SoCalDep
Member
I typed a lot about lights, and I’ll add one small bit... I’m not going to say the Olight is bad - It could be awesome. Maybe one day I’ll look at it. That said, I have a bunch (like nine) Streamlights in the TLR1, HL, TLR2, LTLR2G, TLR7, TLR7A variety, a Surefire X300, XC-1B, and around four X300 Ultras, as well as an InForce ALPc (yuck). Not only my own lights, but my observations of thousands of users have me sold on Streamlight/Surefire. Everything else “may” be good. Those “are” good.
As for optics (and my apologies for ignoring that part of the original post), I think most of them have advantages and drawbacks, and that’s why I have RMRs, SROs, Holosuns, an ACRO, had a DeltaPoint Pro for a little while, and a Sig RomeoZERO (It’s still somewhere - but not on a gun).
For a “budget” optic, I gotta go with Holosun. I bought a 407A3, which is their first version super budget bottom-load battery and no solar panel or switchable reticle on sale for about $170. When COVID delayed our T&E optic from Holosun I used that $170 optic mounted on a Glock 17MOS with C&H plate to fire over 10,000 rounds including seven submersion in water, 100 racks of the slide by hand off the optic, and 25 racks off the optic using a hard wood surface (Barricade, picnic table, etc.). After all that (and no loss of zero), we dropped the pistol directly on the optic, landing on concrete. We did a three foot and a four foot drop. No issues and no zero shift. When we dropped it from five feet the front sight impacted slightly before the optic so we dropped it again. No damage to the optic other than cosmetic damage to the body. After the two five-foot drops we noticed a zero shift of around 1.5” at 15 yards. The optic was easily adjusted back to POA/POI. That 407A3 is sitting on my desk waiting to be mounted to my Agency AOS M&P 2.0 as soon as I get the Holosun screws in.
Other optics have performed well also, so there are lots of good choices out there. My daily carry (off duty) is a G19 with a Trijicon RMR (RM09) and my duty gun is a G45 with a Holosun 509T. I have a bunch of training/teaching/fun guns that have other optics, and I have a G34 with an SRO that will probably be going 10-8 as soon as I confirm reliability. So far the G34/SRO is a beast!
As for optics (and my apologies for ignoring that part of the original post), I think most of them have advantages and drawbacks, and that’s why I have RMRs, SROs, Holosuns, an ACRO, had a DeltaPoint Pro for a little while, and a Sig RomeoZERO (It’s still somewhere - but not on a gun).
For a “budget” optic, I gotta go with Holosun. I bought a 407A3, which is their first version super budget bottom-load battery and no solar panel or switchable reticle on sale for about $170. When COVID delayed our T&E optic from Holosun I used that $170 optic mounted on a Glock 17MOS with C&H plate to fire over 10,000 rounds including seven submersion in water, 100 racks of the slide by hand off the optic, and 25 racks off the optic using a hard wood surface (Barricade, picnic table, etc.). After all that (and no loss of zero), we dropped the pistol directly on the optic, landing on concrete. We did a three foot and a four foot drop. No issues and no zero shift. When we dropped it from five feet the front sight impacted slightly before the optic so we dropped it again. No damage to the optic other than cosmetic damage to the body. After the two five-foot drops we noticed a zero shift of around 1.5” at 15 yards. The optic was easily adjusted back to POA/POI. That 407A3 is sitting on my desk waiting to be mounted to my Agency AOS M&P 2.0 as soon as I get the Holosun screws in.
Other optics have performed well also, so there are lots of good choices out there. My daily carry (off duty) is a G19 with a Trijicon RMR (RM09) and my duty gun is a G45 with a Holosun 509T. I have a bunch of training/teaching/fun guns that have other optics, and I have a G34 with an SRO that will probably be going 10-8 as soon as I confirm reliability. So far the G34/SRO is a beast!
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