Need some info on certain AR's

[MPDC]

In terms of Quality control of the build, there can be a great deal of difference and mere parts specs don't tell the whole story. Even selection of parts from a batch by an expert can make a difference. The reputation Colt has in ARs was earned NOT bestowed. S&W, while not totally "mil spec" is also earning a solid reputation for their late entry into AR manufacturing.

Some boutique guns, while well made and speced, are grossly overpriced IMHO. Overall, Colt still holds its value better and there is a reason for that.

Knocking Dragons , well demonstrated, expertise is telling and I agree with some of the assessments of our newcomer, given my own impression being the same.

 

[meanmrmustard]

just build it.

i built mine for under $600.

Delton kit on a spike's lower.

$89 for the lower, $465 for the kit.

transfer, shipping and taxes was a hair under $600.

unless you like paying twice as much for a name and already built. fwiw, i built mine in 30 mins.

your money.

I did the same! Mid length on a PSA lower. It was super fun.

 

[meanmrmustard]

Both are niche custom shops that have nothing to do with mil-spec* standards. Colt is the standard for M-4s/AR-15s.

*Note that the term "mil-spec" is grossly abused and overused. Colt is one of two manufacturers (in the AR world) that deserves the designation.

Late post, no thread jack or flaming...promise. I just reread this and I ACTUALLY agree with you for once. First off, until these AR makers begin labeling their product properly, they are misleading us. Any civilian AR is not mil-spec, or they would be select fire and government inspected, which they are not...unless you are military. So, I guess mil spec mean "as close as we can get to the real thing". That's why we call em M4gerys. Mil spec=join the armed forces.

 

[Dragon88]

Late post, no thread jack or flaming...promise. I just reread this and I ACTUALLY agree with you for once. First off, until these AR makers begin labeling their product properly, they are misleading us. Any civilian AR is not mil-spec, or they would be select fire and government inspected, which they are not...unless you are military. So, I guess mil spec mean "as close as we can get to the real thing". That's why we call em M4gerys. Mil spec=join the armed forces.

Wrong. The Colt LE6920 is available to the general public. This model is being discontinued in favor of the SP line for civilian sales, but it can still be purchased. Besides having a legal-length barrel and no select fire, it is an M4. Once again, the term "mil-spec" is widely misunderstood and misused. As MPDC said, Colt earned the title, it was not simply handed to them.

 

[Mack]

To the OP, you have a choice you can go with a proven tier 1 rifle, Colt, Daniel Defense, Bravo Company, Noveske and a few others. Or you can chose a tier 2 rifle or 3 rifle. There are some good values out there on quality rifles made to a high standard. Colt is one but not one I would chose due to fact that that on a 16" barrel I think the mid length gas system is a better fit and I don't like the Colt oversized hammer and trigger pins. But Colt makes a very serviceable rifle and the price quoted is not bad. If I wanted a mid length I would buy a Bravo Company, they built to true mil spec on materials, testing and finish and have very good prices. Daniel Defense, Noveske, LaRue and some others also make an excellent high quality carbine but they cost more. Also Palmetto Armory seems to be making some good rifles at excellent prices. Some of the S&W rifles are good but I only use 1/7 twist rifles and they don't make these. I would not buy or use Rock River, Bushmaster or DPMS complete rifles, they are not all bad but there are other choices (Bravo Company or Palmetto) that seem to deliver higher quality in the same price range. Right now Palmetto has their carbine on sale for $599, I don't have one but from reading the specs it sounds like a really good deal.

Palmetto State Armory 16" M4 Chrome Lined, MP, Carbine

They also have some higher grade rifles with things like hammer forged barrels and other options.

Rifles - 5.56

For a first time buyer get one of their package deals with optics and they have good prices on cases of ammo also. Some Pmags to round it out and go shooting .

 

[meanmrmustard]

Wrong. The Colt LE6920 is available to the general public. This model is being discontinued in favor of the SP line for civilian sales, but it can still be purchased. Besides having a legal-length barrel and no select fire, it is an M4. Once again, the term "mil-spec" is widely misunderstood and misused. As MPDC said, Colt earned the title, it was not simply handed to them.

What, to you, is the actual definition of mil spec, because as far as I know the government inspectors do not inspect civilian weapons. Unless I'm an idiot, which ive been known to be before, wouldn't that mean that ONLY Colt is mil spec? As I
remember, Colt bought the title...ARmalite earned it.

Anyway, done arguing. Nothing we can walk into a gun store and buy outright will ever be a mil spec AR, not in the 100% sense of it's meaning. So, for all intents and purposes, I vote the Colt. It is tried and true. My uncle has one, but says the their customer service sucks. Good luck OP.

 

[MPDC]

No, it was designed by Stoner for Armalite. Colt bought the rights and then EARNED the reputation of being the first rate manufacturer of top tier ARs.

 

[meanmrmustard]

No, it was designed by Stoner for Armalite. Colt bought the rights and then EARNED the reputation of being the first rate manufacturer of top tier ARs.

The early Armalite fold aside, their would be no Colt assault rifle without Armalite. Other than that, you just repeated me. They are undeserved in earning some sort of God-like status among black rifle manufacturers. I agree that they are quality as I have shot one, they are nice. Bit heavy for my taste, but nice nonetheless. I have given my vote to Colt not based on reputation, which I believe is overrated, but on the premise that they are as near to true mil spec as the average Joe will
see. Other than that, and money aside, any AR is better than none. Truth be told, the AR design has been one step behind the reliability of the AK. Doesn't change the fact that we want em,
love em, and the our a US staple for those of us who crave tactical weaponry for
the homeowner, hunter, LE. I do not see Colt as having earned anything, however, by having the early monopoly on the black rifle platform circa Vietnam. There are better and worse makers now that the patent is open, but none of them that we lowly blue-collars can own will be mil spec. Not even the colt. It has my regard by way of being closest to the real damn thing, nothing more.

 

[Dragon88]

The early Armalite fold aside, their would be no Colt assault rifle without Armalite. Other than that, you just repeated me. They are undeserved in earning some sort of God-like status among black rifle manufacturers. I agree that they are quality as I have shot one, they are nice. Bit heavy for my taste, but nice nonetheless. I have given my vote to Colt not based on reputation, which I believe is overrated, but on the premise that they are as near to true mil spec as the average Joe will
see. Other than that, and money aside, any AR is better than none. Truth be told, the AR design has been one step behind the reliability of the AK. Doesn't change the fact that we want em,
love em, and the our a US staple for those of us who crave tactical weaponry for
the homeowner, hunter, LE. I do not see Colt as having earned anything, however, by having the early monopoly on the black rifle platform circa Vietnam. There are better and worse makers now that the patent is open, but none of them that we lowly blue-collars can own will be mil spec. Not even the colt. It has my regard by way of being closest to the real damn thing, nothing more.

You have two "final" posts in this thread alone. Is this your third? Fourth? Second, as has been asked of you previously, do you have any credentials to back up your opinions? Ever served a day in uniform? Ever carried an M16/M4 in combat? LEO? AR qualified gunsmith? Because every comment you post makes it more clear that you have a lot of research and learning to do. Unfortunately learning solid facts is often obstructed by stubbornly held misconceptions.

 

[MPDC]

Assault rifle? Though the subject was AR 15, not M 16. Really not too well versed in the black gun thing, huh?

 

[rojodiablo]

Assault rifle? Though the subject was AR 15, not M 16. Really not too well versed in the black gun thing, huh?

No; assault thread, not assault rifle.

Sheesh; thought you knew the difference!!!!

You know, sometimes there is a price point that can seem a bit much, but then it's not too difficult to rationalize your way through it and it ends up being a decent deal. If a rifle is exactly what you are looking for, but say it's running a hundred bucks more than you like???? You could shop it out. Or, maybe you are in a state like Ca where the fees just add cost to the darn rifle; to the point where importing one that is $150 less don't add up to squat.
Or, you want to go shooting tomorrow, so getting that rifle that you really like when it's in stock makes it a done deal for you.... that can be worth some money in itself. And let's never forget that buying a rifle (Or anything for that matter) that is ready to go out of the box is more practical than buying parts and building it; that can be worth a hundred bucks right there when you consider 3-6hrs of your time and then all the shipping, waiting, getting the wrong part shipped out, etc.

In the end; a rifle is more of a long term investment. As such, a rifle that costs you $100 more actually only costs you $0.28 cents per day for one year........ Not too bad, the cost of one measly xm855 round per day for a year, and you are DONE shopping and screwing around. You are out shooting, having a good time. Not getting mean from putting mustard on you, etc.

 

[meanmrmustard]

I voted Colt!

Seriously? Some of you guys question MY knowledge, get the argument snow balled (I helped that too) and every time I think I'm out...you pull me back in!!!

Dragon88: having neat symbols by your using name does not prove knowledge of jack squat. You want research? Here ya go.
The above mentioned Colt LE6920, in civvie form is not mil spec. Pins on street version are oversized. Due to different mill procedure on the LE variant, it also is not mil spec. It has no select fire, therefore it is milled out of spec. The select fire variant is true in regards to the TDP. So, you see, any version of that particular rifle that the average consumer may own is not to spec.


MPDC: It is just that, assault rifles. Armalite didn't give it the M16 designation, Army did. Black gun knowledge? Prove yours with something other than witty quips...please. Also, thank you for your feedback on my question about the PA micro.


Rojodiablo: I happen to like the Beatles, that song in particular. I implore you to not bash my Beatles with a play on words.


I voted, so let it go.

 

[MPDC]

"MPDC: It is just that, assault rifles. Armalite didn't give it the M16 designation, Army did. Black gun knowledge? Prove yours with something other than witty quips...please. Also, thank you for your feedback on my question about the PA micro."

I don't consider myself an expert as my MOS in the Marine Corps was not as an armorer. However, I have used both M16s and AR15s extensively over the years. I have some formal training as an ex LEO and managed to survive both the Marine Corps (66-69 Sgt. E5) and years as a large city Police Officer.

FYI, the term "assault rifle" in modern terms, is a negative connotation given AR15s by anti gun propagandists who don't care or understand the difference between auto and semi auto rifles. It was an archaic term first used to describe the German, auto assault rifles of WWII NOT the Stoner design which was designated as Armalite automatic rifle. The AR stands for Armalite by contract, NOT Auto rifle OR Assault Rifle.

Since the OP was referring to AR15s, not M16s , using that term to describe a Colt LE , non full auto rifle is just very telling about your actual, new internet acquired knowledge.

IMHO, you have little to contribute here other than being obtuse to people with real world experience. You seem to have contempt for veterans who have actually used these weapons in their military form in actual combat and discount their knowledge. Yours seems limited to anecdotal stories from "relatives" who served.

I will leave your posts and comments alone henceforth. You have demonstrated your worth to me and therefore nothing can be gained from arguing with you (arguing since you seem unwilling to learn). I hope newer members without real world experience aren't misled by your psuedo expertise and uninformed opinions.

I also hope others here will just let your stuff go because the attention you crave, unsated, will probably have you bored and stop the incessant challenges to posters whose knowledge far exceeds your own.

 

[rojodiablo]

: I happen to like the Beatles, that song in particular. I implore you to not bash my Beatles with a play on words.

I will gladly let you have your Beatles.............................




I hear Skynyrd saying 'Gimme back my bullets'...........

 

[filmit]

I don't know that you're getting a lot of factual data. These links will tell you what you want to know, what types of steels used and what kind of testing procedures. This is the best info I've found on comparing AR brands.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spr...akp2a3Y2NjMxTEE&single=true&gid=2&output=html
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spr...akp2a3Y2NjMxTEE&single=true&gid=2&output=html

 

[filmit]

https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html

Read this one first.

 

[Dragon88]

I also hope others here will just let your stuff go because the attention you crave, unsated, will probably have you bored and stop the incessant challenges to posters whose knowledge far exceeds your own.

Agreed.

....

 

[Maximumbob54]

https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html

Read this one first.

I had no idea the OP was looking for this in depth of M4 info. When the talk is just AR's I tend to think just generic AR rifles that most everyone makes these days. True milspec is nuts to the T level that would cost an arm and a leg for the average guy to buy or build. It can be done minus the select fire parts, but for your average AR buyer I still think this is beyond deep. The F marked FSB gives you more adjustment, but I have yet to see one that can't be used with the rear sight. Park'ed under the FSB, sure it's more complete, but you don't buy a hell and back rifle for under $1K and keep getting all the milspec options staying on your rifle. Barrel steel for a soldier isn't cheap either. And while I can see the milspec need for a soldier to have a 1 in 7 barrel twist, it's pretty limiting for your average AR at the range person. 1 in 9 gives you a jack of all trades master of none but each of my rifles shoots pretty tight if I select decent ammo and do my part. I avoided this until this point because I couldn't figure what the OP was looking for anymore. And I stand by my original comment about my AR's since I'm not trying to say they were MPI tested or anything of the sort. But they are all reliable, fun, and didn't cost me an arm and a leg. If we wanted to discuss what the best parts are in what AR build then I honestly wouldn't pick either of the OP's choices. I'm more likely to have BCM or someone else custom build my rifle to how I want it. Besides, if you want people to start thinking that a staked castle nut is the ends all only the best answer then I won't mention how Ace stocks are vastly stronger while they aren't thought to be milspec that I know of. Milspec isn't the Holy Grail of AR's, it's just another level of build with certain parts. Come to think of it, that chart glosses right over the fact that non chrome lined barrels are inherently more accurate due to the chrome lining never being as even as the cut rifling. There is a lot of assumed knowledge from putting the term milspec on a pedestal.

 

[meanmrmustard]

Agreed.

....

I havent heard an intelligent thing that would lead one to believe you have "expertise" outta either on of ya.

I will agree that there are many, many more folks that have vastly more knowledge than I do. Just not on this thread, or at least, that can prove that they do. It isnt necessary to me that you guys are smarter or more learned in the world of Ars. I just asked, many many posts ago, how anyone could tell differences in weapons on shooting alone. Havent got any anwers, only criticism by some of you who fancy yourselves "experienced". Didnt want to argue, just asked a question that never got answered. Sorry if I gave you all the impression Im something of an expert, never said I was. I leave the pretension to others

 

[meanmrmustard]

I will gladly let you have your Beatles.............................




I hear Skynyrd saying 'Gimme back my bullets'...........

Not sure if that was a poke, or you just like Skynard. Either way, funny. Hopefully, not mean though.

More like 'Happiness is a warm gun'...