New bill introduced in Congress to stop ATF ruling on pistol braces

rbuzz

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There was a new bill just introduced earlier today that may give us a bit of hope that the ATF ruling on pistol braces might be stopped. I don't how much of a chance it has in passing, but it's a start. Ultimately it still may take court action to block it, but it's something and it shows our elected officials that we aren't going to take this without a fight.

It's called the P...protecting I...individual S...sovereignty T...through our laws A...act, or the Pistol Act. Basically what it does is to update and define the definition of a rifle so that it does not include a pistol with a stabilizing brace on it.

It was just introduced today, so many Congress members probably don't know about it yet, so call, write, or email your Congressmen to tell them to support this bill.

To see the bill click on the link........https://good.house.gov/sites/evo-su...files/evo-media-document/PISTOL ACT 117th.pdf

Or to see a video describing the bill........ [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v59slk8IghU[/ame]
 
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Great, Republicans are finally going to care enough about a gun issue to try to do something... of course it is no surprise that they pick the one issue that the gun industry is on the wrong side of. They'll no doubt screw up the free tax stamp offer for those of us that actually want to use it.

I'm sorry but I've just got 3 questions for all of you complaining about this rule soooo much.

1. Do you have a pistol with a stabilizing brace?
2. Do you fire it shouldered?
3. What makes you think that it isn't a stock then?
 
At least some legislators will hopefully see that the BATFE and the Executive Branch are usurping the Legislative Branch's power.

Face it, quite a large number of legislators like what Bureaucracy is doing to America.

I think the Legislative Branch likes it that way because much more regulation and restriction can be accomplished and the the legislators don't have to look like they are the ones intruding on American liberty willy-nilly (and they don't have to do the work) so get to duck their responsibility to the American people.


It's been that way for decades.
 
Great, Republicans are finally going to care enough about a gun issue to try to do something... of course it is no surprise that they pick the one issue that the gun industry is on the wrong side of. They'll no doubt screw up the free tax stamp offer for those of us that actually want to use it.

I'm sorry but I've just got 3 questions for all of you complaining about this rule soooo much.

1. Do you have a pistol with a stabilizing brace?
2. Do you fire it shouldered?
3. What makes you think that it isn't a stock then?

Perhaps the fact that the ATF has for the past decade said that they were legal? The ATF has given pistol stabilizing brace it's OK in several different letters to manufacturers and even said that it could be used shouldered.

As a result of that, millions of people purchased legally what the ATF said was a pistol, but that it could still be shouldered. Now because biden is pushing his anti 2nd Amendment agenda any way he can, it's suddenly been changed even though there are probably 40 million of them out there which were purchased with the ATF's blessing.

But probably one of the biggest reasons is that the ATF does not have the authority to write law, only Congress has that right. This is an unconstitutional power grab by the ATF, ordered by biden because he couldn't get it done legislatively, designed to chip away at our 2nd Amendment rights. If this is allowed to get by, then what's next?
 
Perhaps the fact that the ATF has for the past decade said that they were legal? The ATF has given pistol stabilizing brace it's OK in several different letters to manufacturers and even said that it could be used shouldered.

As a result of that, millions of people purchased legally what the ATF said was a pistol, but that it could still be shouldered. Now because biden is pushing his anti 2nd Amendment agenda any way he can, it's suddenly been changed even though there are probably 40 million of them out there which were purchased with the ATF's blessing.

But probably one of the biggest reasons is that the ATF does not have the authority to write law, only Congress has that right. This is an unconstitutional power grab by the ATF, ordered by biden because he couldn't get it done legislatively, designed to chip away at our 2nd Amendment rights. If this is allowed to get by, then what's next?

Y'all complain that the ATF doesn't have the authority to write law (and I agree), but that is exactly what they did when they said braces weren't stocks. The NFA of 1934 is quite clear on the matter. We all knew when we bought them that we were essentially getting an SBR with no paperwork. This is clearly not the same as the ATF rewriting the definition of a machine gun to include bumpstocks.

And for the record, if you bother to read the nearly 300 page rule you'll see that the ATF doesn't have a problem with braces used as braces, and was never ok with people using them like stocks (accidental shouldering aside).

You can debate the NFA and whether or not SBR's should be regulated, or even if any regulation at all is constitutional, but the law is 90 years old... don't expect the courts to all of a sudden come out against it.

- and I noticed that you didn't answer my 3 questions.
 
Rep. Matt Gaetz has also introduced H.R.374, the "Abolish the ATF Act." It probably won't go anywhere, but at least it's a step in the right direction.
 
Great, Republicans are finally going to care enough about a gun issue to try to do something... of course it is no surprise that they pick the one issue that the gun industry is on the wrong side of. They'll no doubt screw up the free tax stamp offer for those of us that actually want to use it.

I'm sorry but I've just got 3 questions for all of you complaining about this rule soooo much.

1. Do you have a pistol with a stabilizing brace?
2. Do you fire it shouldered?
3. What makes you think that it isn't a stock then?

1. Yes
2. No
3. Because the BATF has said in writing that it is not a stock
 
And for the record, if you bother to read the nearly 300 page rule you'll see that the ATF doesn't have a problem with braces used as braces, and was never ok with people using them like stocks (accidental shouldering aside).

This regulation greatly affects commercial made brace pistols. Since you have read and have a formed a understanding of the new regulation will you share the BATF position on commercial pistols with braces? Specifically;

How will future commercially made braced pistols be sold and brought?

Will (or how) they be allowed to be imported into the U.S.?

Can retailers have them in stock?

If so how will the sale be done?

Will the pistol have to be held by the retailer/seller until the buyer receives their Tax Stamp the same way suppressors are currently done?

Since the Tax Stamp requires a serial number of the pistol it will be impossible to shop for one after receiving the stamp. This will
make it difficult for retailers/sellers to have braced pistols in stock (if allowed).

What FFL classification will allow a dealer/retailer to sell braced pistols?
 
Great, Republicans are finally going to care enough about a gun issue to try to do something... of course it is no surprise that they pick the one issue that the gun industry is on the wrong side of. They'll no doubt screw up the free tax stamp offer for those of us that actually want to use it.

I'm sorry but I've just got 3 questions for all of you complaining about this rule soooo much.

1. Do you have a pistol with a stabilizing brace?
2. Do you fire it shouldered?
3. What makes you think that it isn't a stock then?

1. I do.

2. I do.

3. I agree the ATF could have used its authority in 2012 to define braced pistols as SBRs under the principle of Chevron Deference and a common sense interpretation based on the intent of the SBR provisions of the NFA of 1934. In short, if it looks like a stock and can be used like a stock, it’s a stock, and if it’s mounted on a rifled barrel firearms with a barrel less than 16”, it’s an SBR. Period. Full stop. No one would have challenged them on it. They could have addressed the alleged accessibility/disability by waiving the tax stamp fee for SBR registrations for people with qualifying documented disabilities.

But that’s not what the ATF did.

The ATF used a narrow read of the law to review the issue of pistol braces against the regulations and determined a braced pistol was in fact not an SBR, but was in fact still a pistol, regardless of whether it was shouldered.

In 2015, the ATF tried to stick that genie back in the bottle by claiming that shouldering a braced pistol made it an SBR. In simple terms they claimed how a firearm is used defines its classification and rifles were made to be shot with two hands. By extension then, so was the 1911. Not surprisingly that effort didn’t withstand even basic scrutiny and they pulled it back.

Then under the current administration they passed a proposed rule and got roughly 20,000 comments in support, 8,000 of those being form letters, against 217,000 comments in opposition to the proposed rules. And yet they persisted with the rule banning pistols braces.

The ATF has also persisted despite Supreme Court rulings gutting its ban on bump stocks, which had the same regulatory trajectory on being approved (since 2013) and then suddenly banned when ATF reversed its original interpretation.

The difference between the ATF using Chevron deference in 2012 to say pistol braces are legal, and using Chevron deference now - after 20 million of them have been sold - is that now individuals who legally bought them after ATF approved them are in a position of hanging to register them, or face criminal penalties and imprisonment.

The ATF does not have the authority to do that. Under administrative law, a cognizant agency, like ATF, in charge of a set of regulations, is granted a great deal of latitude in its interpretation as long as the statute is silent on the issue, and the interpretation made is a “reasonable construction” of the statute.

However, ATF cannot approve them, allow millions to be sold and then make a second redetermination reversing their first determination resulting in criminal penalties for people who do not comply.

When criminal penalties are involved the Rule of Lenity must be applied prior to a Chevron deference and in essence it requires an interpretation be made that is “most favorable” to the defendant. In this case, ATF canto claim there is not an interpretation that makes braced pistols legal, their interpretation did exactly that from 2012 to 2022.


——

Now…I get it. Many people are still stuck on the “if it looks like it…” idea. But even if we set aside the administrative law aspects of that ship already sailing, so what?


In 1934 folks like Clyde Barrow were sawing the barrels off on full auto weapons like the Colt Monitor (a favorite of Clyde’s) to better conceal them under a trench coat for the purpose of knocking off a bank. Thus the NFA of 1934 and related registration and tax stamp fees. Which of course members of criminal gangs ignored anyway.

Fast forward to 2012 when braced pistols were approved by ATF what happened? Not much. They didn’t cause any spike in crime.

The industry sold about 20 million of them (industry estimates, ATF says “only” 3 million), and ATF cited exactly two crimes where braced pistols were present. Both were mass shootings, but at the time the NPRM was published there had been over 2600 mass shootings between 2012 and 2022 when the rule went out for comment. That’s 2 out of 2600 mass shooting, or just 0.07% and just 2 out of 3 million, or 0.0007% of all braced pistols sold (and that’s using ATFs low estimate).

And strictly speaking, the two pistols with their short barrels, used in those mass shootings were less lethal than the longer barrel rifle and carbine versions of them would have been.

So I’m just not seeing where the benefit is in banning them. Braced pistols are still to large and too hard to conceal to be used in any significant degree by criminals, and when used will be by definition less lethal than a longer barrel counterpart shooting the same ammo at higher velocity.


More over, since SBRs and suppressors are virtually never used in crimes as well, the smarter move is to just remove those items from the registration requirements of the NFA. Make them a check box like “handgun” on form 4473 and require a purchase permit just like a handgun. It makes them items subject to local control at the discretion of the states.

It would also save the ATF about 90 FTEs currently running background checks on those items that instead could be doing things that are far more productive, like running down social media leads when mass shooters invariable broadcast their intentions in advance.
 
Y'all complain that the ATF doesn't have the authority to write law (and I agree), but that is exactly what they did when they said braces weren't stocks. The NFA of 1934 is quite clear on the matter. We all knew when we bought them that we were essentially getting an SBR with no paperwork. This is clearly not the same as the ATF rewriting the definition of a machine gun to include bumpstocks.

And for the record, if you bother to read the nearly 300 page rule you'll see that the ATF doesn't have a problem with braces used as braces, and was never ok with people using them like stocks (accidental shouldering aside).

You can debate the NFA and whether or not SBR's should be regulated, or even if any regulation at all is constitutional, but the law is 90 years old... don't expect the courts to all of a sudden come out against it.

- and I noticed that you didn't answer my 3 questions.

After it’s 2015 attempt to say they could not be shouldered (which was the first time they said they could not be shouldered) that ATF did in fact back off and agree they could be shouldered.

None of us have any expectation that the court will overturn the NFA. Although we could argue that the intent of the NFA was never to ban or require registration firearms in common use (as in all those 14” Winchester trapper carbines that were exempt as they were in common use).

Those of us who think the NFA of 1934’s provisions against SBRs and suppressors is antiquated and no longer serves any useful crime control purpose agree it’s up to congress to repeal it.

Although the ATF could opt to stop enforcing it. Just as the FCC stopped enforcing the fairness doctrine in 1987, long before it was finally repealed in 2011.
 
And for the record, if you bother to read the nearly 300 page rule you'll see that the ATF doesn't have a problem with braces used as braces, and was never ok with people using them like stocks (accidental shouldering aside). /
.
Reading the plethora of information out there since the ATF started the BRACE Witch hunt I see they bring up the fact that braces were originlly approved as an assistance appliance for the handicapped.
In reading through the 300 page rule around page 101 there's mention of the fact that use can still use a brace without a tax stamp if you're disabled. I have problems with my legs and have handicapped plates on my truck. Does that mean I can still use a braced AR but have to strap it to my foot?
 
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In reading through the 300 page rule [/QUOTE said:
As a matter of note, the rule is about 10 pages long and begins on approximately pps 268. Imo, the only thing that really matters (legally enforceable or defensible) is in the rule itself. Not the about 290 pages of misdirection.

Ps. Just when does the rule get published? One might think they would want it published as soon as possible at the best political advantage moment for the administration.

Federal Register
::
Agencies - Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives Bureau
 
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The first 268 pages gives the ATF plenty of political and legal outs in terms of rationale for their constantly changing position.

Look, all I'm saying is that 120 days after the rule is published, if you still have a braced pistol and haven't taken any of the steps outlined, then you are going to be in violation of the 1934 NFA. And if/when the federal government charges you with a felony as such, and your best defense hinges on the ATF's terminology flip-flops and whether or not the SBR's should even be regulated... you're in trouble. Serious trouble.

Or we could all just take the free stamp and go about our business putting real stocks on our firearms. (obviously still a problem in states that don't allow SBR's).
 
The first 268 pages gives the ATF plenty of political and legal outs in terms of rationale for their constantly changing position.

Look, all I'm saying is that 120 days after the rule is published, if you still have a braced pistol and haven't taken any of the steps outlined, then you are going to be in violation of the 1934 NFA. And if/when the federal government charges you with a felony as such, and your best defense hinges on the ATF's terminology flip-flops and whether or not the SBR's should even be regulated... you're in trouble. Serious trouble.

Or we could all just take the free stamp and go about our business putting real stocks on our firearms. (obviously still a problem in states that don't allow SBR's).

I’m going to wait and see. I’ll get the required finger prints and fill out the forms but I think anyone with a braced pistols would be nuts to submit the paper work any earlier than 60 days after publication of the rule as the legal challenges will be massive:

1) There are the administrative law issues including:
- the over reach on the ATF based on abuse of a Chevron Defernece;
- the Rule of Lenity issues given that the rule change now results in criminal penalties for non compliance; and
- the ATF’s flip flops on the issue and the continuing ambiguity in the proposed rule that impeaches the credibility of the ATF and raises issues going back to the Staples decision in 1994 regarding mens rea and the ATF’s inability to prove intent that individuals will know they have an illegal firearm given the complex and confusing nature of the criteria in the rule.
- the ATF’s extensive addition to the legislative definition of a rifle in the regulations to sweep braced pistols into that definition, opening the ATF to the very rational argument that such an extensive clarification and redefinition of a class of firearms is a power granted to congress, not an agency in the executive branch.
- the lack of any statutory authority under the NFA of 1934 for the ATF to register braced pistols that are already in use. The NFA allows registration of newly purchased restricted items and the transfer of restricted items. There is no provision to register weapons that AFT arbitrarily decided are now restricted under the NFA.

2) There are also Constitutional issues that stem from the recent cases in Heller, Heller II and Bruen that effectively protect both rifles and handguns under the second amendment, with short barrel rifles being in between those legal extremes. In light of those decisions the SBR issue itself may well be over turned.

3) Finally, the ATF must prove that braced pistols are both dangerous and unusual and the ATF has devoted literally hundreds of page trying to do that. They doth protest too much. They are in common use, even with the small 3 million ATF estimate. Consider for a minute the Model 94 Winchester was one of the most produced rifles in history and it’s only about 7 million. 3 million is a big “common use” number. There’s also a lack of both data and specific instances where braced pistols have been used in crimes. The ATF cited 2. 2 over an 11 year period of time with at least 3 million of these weapons in common use. The lack of a valid “unusual and dangerous” claims takes it out of the scope of the NFA of 1934.

—-

The ATF only has to lose on one of the above challenges for the rule to be thrown out.

My suspicion is the ATF is going to get slapped really hard by the Supreme Court for not just this rule, but an egregious pattern of regulatory over reach in its whole bump stock, forced reset trigger, solvent trap, and braced pistol agenda.

There’s also ATFs trouble some history of doing things like selling solvent traps to entrap customers, and loading rifle ammunition with pistol primers to get semi- auto rifles to double due to inertial firing pins striking the lighter cups in these primers not intended for rifle pressures.

The thing I think you need to take to heart is that if the ATF gets away with this egregious abuse of administrative law and related statutory creep and over reach where it can usurp the authority and intent of congress and make things illegal on a whim, other government agencies can do similar things on other matters that will be a concern other citizens on non firearm issues.
 
The ATF only has to lose on one of the above challenges for the rule to be thrown out.

My suspicion is the ATF is going to get slapped really hard by the Supreme Court for not just this rule, but an egregious pattern of regulatory over reach in its whole bump stock, forced reset trigger, solvent trap, and braced pistol agenda.

I think that is being pretty optimistic. The bumpstock ban went into effect in 2017, 5+ years later, a court has finally concluded that the ATF went beyond its authority. On this issue specifically it couldn't be more clear, the ATF quite obviously redefined a legal term - yet it still hasn't 100% been put to bed. There will be at least one more challenge to the matter... check back in another year.

Yes, today's SCOTUS is a lot more friendly to 2A issues, but time and again they have declined to take valid gun cases, refused to wade into the murky grey areas, and limited the scope of their decisions. I'm not holding out any hope that they overturn the NFA.

Sure, wait 60 days - makes perfect sense and I will likely do the same (got to get my trust set up anyways). But at 120 days, my advise is that you take one of the options outlined. My only concern is that the legal challenges and republicans are going to screw up the best option available... free tax stamps.
 
Anyone who thinks "free tax stamps" is really how this is all going to pan out is putting way too much faith in the ATF to act ethically.

Just refer to the 'solvent trap' Form 1 fiasco a year ago if you want to see what they did under very similar circumstances.
 
Anyone who thinks "free tax stamps" is really how this is all going to pan out is putting way too much faith in the ATF to act ethically.

Just refer to the 'solvent trap' Form 1 fiasco a year ago if you want to see what they did under very similar circumstances.

While I can't say that I'm 100% aware of all of the ins and outs of the solvent trap fiasco you are referencing, I will say that if you bought one of these "traps", then you did so with the intent of having a suppressor without doing any of the requirements set forth in codified law. Sorry, but that's just the reality of the situation. If you bought them with the intent of filling out a Form 1 and making a legal suppressor, then you got caught in the middle of the ATF and the "suppressor" part MFG. Unfortunate for you, sure, but that isn't the ATF acting unethically. I'm not aware of the ATF offering any purchasers of solvent traps free tax stamps, so I'm not sure exactly how you are making the comparison.
 
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