New setup for 9mmand 40 - powder questions

[smokindog]

I've been working over the past few months to research and order what I'll need to get into reloading without paying outrageous prices for "instant gratification". I've been doing fairly well!

I have a Hornady LNL AP coming along with plates and dies for 9MM and 40. I already had calipers, triple beam, and the remaining equipment from other interests/hobbies.

I've been getting ready to start my quest for powders and primers, having my nose in the Hornady Handbook (9th) and all throughout the net and youtube.

I've decided that looking for one powder to cover both my 9mm and 40 needs will help save cost and confusion in my beginning phases of reloading. I guess that's the first thing I'm looking for help with, ... is this a reasonable thing to do????



Soooooo, in reviewing the data from the Hornady book I looked at the tables and found for 9mm 115/124gr and 40 155/180 gr bullets, the following powders are listed for all applications.

• Accurate #7
• Power Pistol
• IMR SR-4656
• Win AutoComp
• HS-6

I am reloading for the range and I've already got more than a 1000 pieces of brass for each caliber, purchased by me, fired once, mostly Federal and Winchester whitebox.

I'll be getting lot's of free Hornady bullets to begin with from the rebates on the equipment I purchased.

Given my setup, does someone have reason to select one of the above (or other powders) as preferred? Perhaps one meters more consistenly in the LNL?

I have a MP 9mm Pro 5" and an MP 40 4.25"

THANKS in advance!

 

[much ado]

On the subject of Power Pistol it will give you a lot of flash.If it`s an indoor range it will be much more noticeable. HS6 gives a slight flash. I only load 40 and recently when powders began drying up in the frenzy I bought several pounds of Universal Clays(only thing I could find)and it performs great with 150/155s and 180s.It will stay on my preferred list after the craziness. John

 

[smlake]

I would suggest you add Unique to this list. I would place it at the top of the list and throw the list away after Unique was added. Unique can be used for other cartridges you may wish to shoot later, such as .38 special, .357 mag, .45 acp, .44 mag. It also has wide application in shotguns. Some people will tell you this old powder is dirty. I could care less since I clean every gun I shoot after I finish at the range and the new formulation is not dirty. Unique also has another great feature. It is a bulky powder so as you load, it is easy to see that you have powder in the case you are loading and it is usually very obvious that you have not gotten a double charge in a case, which will result in a kaboom. Unique is also one of the least expensive and most widely available powders.

 

[smokindog]

I've seen many people rave about Unique and seen it used in many of the YouTube videos I've reviewed for various calibers. I know that one book is not an all encompassing reference but it concerned me that the widely respected Hornady book only listed the use of Unique for 124 gr 9MM loads of the 4 I'm looking to span.

I would suggest you add Unique to this list. I would place it at the top of the list and throw the list away after Unique was added. Unique can be used for other cartridges you may wish to shoot later, such as .38 special, .357 mag, .45 acp, .44 mag. It also has wide application in shotguns. Some people will tell you this old powder is dirty. I could care less since I clean every gun I shoot after I finish at the range and the new formulation is not dirty. Unique also has another great feature. It is a bulky powder so as you load, it is easy to see that you have powder in the case you are loading and it is usually very obvious that you have not gotten a double charge in a case, which will result in a kaboom. Unique is also one of the least expensive and most widely available powders.

 

[mikld]

I would suggest more than Hornady's manual. A "generic" manual like Lyman's 49th will add info. on powders (perhaps Hornady just didn't consider Unique suitable for an bullets lighter than 124 gr.). I use Unique (among others) in my 9mms using jacketed, plated, and lead bullets, and don't use the other powders you mentioned, so I have no opinion there.

Personally, I pay no attention to load data from any forum expert, range rat, gun counter clerk, reloader's website or especially youtube. I get my data from published reloading manuals only. I've heard/read some pretty wild and even dangerous "pet loads" offered, usually in good faith from one of the above "experts"...

 

[smokindog]

Sound advice. I really wasn't looking for load data, more preferences for one powder over another and why. I got the Hornady book as a starting reference point but again, good advice on getting other sources. AND I am NOT trying to be sarcastic.

Basically, to get off on the right foot, I got a small subset of respectable data to set a foundation so I pulled the data from Hornady and listed the powders it had for the loads I wanted to begin with! I'll branch out from there. I used to mix my own photography chemicals and although mistakes there have a low chance of injuring you, the slightest change to formulas can ruin a HUGE amount of very expensive paper and film.

I would suggest more than Hornady's manual. A "generic" manual like Lyman's 49th will add info. on powders (perhaps Hornady just didn't consider Unique suitable for an bullets lighter than 124 gr.). I use Unique (among others) in my 9mms using jacketed, plated, and lead bullets, and don't use the other powders you mentioned, so I have no opinion there.

Personally, I pay no attention to load data from any forum expert, range rat, gun counter clerk, reloader's website or especially youtube. I get my data from published reloading manuals only. I've heard/read some pretty wild and even dangerous "pet loads" offered, usually in good faith from one of the above "experts"...

 

[3five7]

Of the the powders you listed, I would prefer Power Pistol. Yes it is probably flashy, but I have never had a paper target complain and some people like the flash. It meters great and is very consistant. It is also fairly bulky so it is easy to see if you have a double charge and It works great in 9mm and 40 S&W. As mentioned by "much ado" another great powder for both 9mm and 40 S&W IMHO is Hodgdon Universal Clays, it will do anything that Unique will do, but do it cleaner and will meter better.

 

[blujax01]

Power Pistol is a good choice.

 

[Titegroups]

Power pistol, that triple beam probably aint gonna work, grains not grams, buy a powder scale, you need to measure to the tenth of a grain.

 

[smokindog]

Great catch on the scale. I thought I'd get to this topic later in the discussion!!!!!

Is there any reason I can't use my NATCO Engineering Handbook of Conversion Factors from my previous life that tells me this? Is it the correct conversion for this process?

1 Grain = 0.064798918 Grams​

This is the scale I have -

Ohaus Dial-O-Gram Balance - 310-00 | scalesonline.com

Power pistol, that triple beam probably aint gonna work, grains not grams, buy a powder scale, you need to measure to the tenth of a grain.

 

[Titegroups]

Pretty niffty scale but powder measurment is too critical and the scale needs to be sensitive enough for accurate readings, there about 15 grains in a gram and you need to measure to tenths of a grain. Simple put, no way would I do that, lee makes a very inexpensive scale($25) if you cant afford a better ($75) or so unit.

 

[smokindog]

This is a top end scale (>$200) that reads to .01 Gram (1/100)

Capacity
310g
Readability
0.01g
Platform
3.5 x 0.5in​

Also, the conversion I gave is the exact measure of grains to grams. Why would I want to switch to a $25 dollar scale. I'm trying to understand your comment here to go backwards in accuracy.

1 Grain = 0.064798918 Grams or
15.43235644768019 grains = 1 gram

Pretty niffty scale but powder measurment is too critical and the scale needs to be sensitive enough for accurate readings, there about 15 grains in a gram and you need to measure to tenths of a grain. Simple put, no way would I do that, lee makes a very inexpensive scale($25) if you cant afford a better ($75) or so unit.

 

[blujax01]

While you do have a very expensive and accurate scale, in my opinion it does not have the degree of resolution necessary to the task.

If your desired load is 5.5 grains you need to measure 0.356394 grams. The closest you can read will be 0.35 or 0.36 grams. Converting this back to grains the measurement becomes either 5.4 or 5.6. You will be unable to accurately measure 5.5 grains. And in the world of statistical accuracy usually the final digit becomes an estimate. I would not trust the accuracy of the resultant measurement beyond 5 (whole number) grains.

Your call obviously. This could be my OCD talking.

If you choose to replace it I would not buy a $25 scale for anything more critical than figuring postage. If I were looking at a beam and balance, I would plan on spending $50 new. I personally would not consider anything electronic under $100.

 

[smokindog]

THX blujax! I've noticed your posts to be well thought out and helpful. I thought that may be where he was going and, like you, I wouldn't touch a cheap scale.

I agree with your overall assessment BUT wanted to toss out one more thing. AND I'm not dismissing nor trying to argue

Precision vs accuracy. Precision is repeatability and accuracy is variance from targeted value. Found this rather appropriate link given we're talking to shooters Accuracy and Precision

I've looked at a few of the beam scales in the stores and they appear to be the same OHaus variants with different units of readout applied (same precision). The model numbers even tend to be very similar. Given the cost of a device increases with both higher precision and accuracy, the cost for a given scale of a given quality should be very similar regardless of the unit of measure reported.

If you assume the least significant digit provided in a measurement (accuracy) by any device is a "guess" (bias) then you can see how both scales should provide the same accuracy/precision, it's the unit of measure readout that varies.

However, the point is well taken and there is still the need for conversion and that's one more place to make an error. FORTUNATELY, given the nature of it being a 15:1, it SHOULD be quite obvious!!!!!

This discussion does make me consider a third choice.

Given I know this scale to be both accurate and precise, I think what I may do is look for a good set of check weights measured in grains where I can set my scale to the target weight by placing them on the beam to zero it to target. I can then "weigh" the cost of that versus a new multi-hundred dollar scale!!!!

AGAIN - thank you all for sharing and engaging in a "debate" rather than a flame war!!!! I'm always happy to be shown I'm wrong, especially when I am the one asking for help!!!!

This world could use much more of this type of sharing of ideas. I'm constantly frustrated by the "dominating opinion" paradigm we seem to have slipped into the past 20-30 years

BTW - I'm an Ohio boy by birth and a sad Buckeye fan at the moment

While you do have a very expensive and accurate scale, in my opinion it does not have the degree of resolution necessary to the task.

...

Your call obviously. This could be my OCD talking.

 

[gwpercle]

Be careful when you are doing the conversion math...if you mess up and get either too much or not enough ( some powders have a critical amount ) the consequences could be dire.
I think the biggest reason to have a grain scale is to make weighing powder quicker, simpler and easier.
I realize that some people just enjoy doing things the hard way so it's your choice.
Grain weight powder scales don't have to cost an arm and a leg. Lee makes an accurate inexpensive scale. Look on ebay for deals , I got a nice RCBS for $35.00 used but in perfect working order.

 

[scooter123]

Pertaining to scales. I have that cheap, 25 dollar Lee powder scale. This cheap scale is sensitive enough to allow me to determine if I am just one SINGLE granule heavy heavy on the powder load when using Accurate 2495. That's a piece of powder about the diameter of a straight pin and about 1/16 inch long. You wont get this level of sensitivity from your high dollar Ohaus scale, it simply wasn't designed to be this sensitive.

I'll also warn you the electronic scales that are designed to work in these weight ranges are EXTREMELY sensitive to Radio Frequency Interference. I do my reloading in the basement and any time the furnace blower kicks on the zero of my electronic scale goes right out the window. I've also found that the RFI produced by flourescent lights will cause the zero to wander in a slow sinusoidal pattern. If you are going to use an electronic scale you'll want to install either incandescent or LED lighting in the immediate area.

As for powders, I like Unique a lot. However I cannot recommend it's use in a progressive press, it just doesn't meter well enough. All of my loads using Unique are individually weighed then poured. If you can find it I would suggest trying out the HS-6, as a small grain spherical powder it will meter well and the correct loads have enough volume that a double charge will be very apparent. Next recommendation the SR-4656, it's a nice bulky powder but is somewhat sensitive with a rather narrow weight range for 9mm and 40 caliber. Unfortunately right now powder choices are more a matter of what you can find instead of what will work best for your purpose.

Finally, just because you don't see a particular powder listed in every application that doesn't mean it won't work. The simple truth is that you won't find any load data that has every single bullet avalable listed for a particular powder. Sometimes your only choice is an educated guess and starting low then working up to a final load. For example Alliant only lists Speer Gold Dot bullets in their load data, no FMJ and no cast bullet data. It's why everyone ends up with a collection of load manuals, for lead bullets you need Lymans, for FMJ you need Speer, etc. You'll also want to note that almost all the data tables list the MINIMUM Overall Length. Look at the SAAMI specification and you'll find the specified overall length is normally a good bit longer.

As a basic rule of thumb when a starting and maximum load are listed my initial tests will start at the starting point and finish at the midpoint. I'll also add 0.01 to 0.015 to the minimum length and use that as my load length. If it functions well with good accuracy I'll stop at that midpoint load and call it good. The reason for doing this is that it allows a wider margin of error in the charge, uses a bit less powder than a maximum load, and it will produce a lower pressure load that extends casing life. If I find that a particular choice doesn't meet the power factor for a specific competition then I'll change to a powder such as Longshot that produces more velocity and hand weigh each charge.

 

[forestswin]

..Given I know this scale to be both accurate and precise, I think what I may do is look for a good set of check weights measured in grains where I can set my scale to the target weight by placing them on the beam to zero it to target. I can then "weigh" the cost of that versus a new multi-hundred dollar scale!!!!

check weights are a great idea

here's a good set: RCBS Standard Scale Check Weights 60.5 Grains

when your scale or any scale agrees with the reference (the check weights) - then you'll know it's accurate, prior to that -its just a manufacturer's claim

and I agree with smokindog - very good and worthwhile discussion

 

[fredj338]

I would not want to be doing math conversions for rmeasuring powder. If the scale won't give you grains, regardless of the quality of it, buy a proper reloading scale. Eventually, you'll screw the math up & potential problems are going to happen, best to avoid such things. BTW, the Lee scale is pure craap. Yes it works, sort of, but there are far better scales for under $75. Go dig, you need to pay $100+ for repeatable precision & accuracy. Been there, done that. Cheap out on dies, but pay good money for a proper scale.
Powders, all the ones you list will work, all are more appropriate for higher end vel loads. THey are in the upper end of what I call medium bruners. So they will not burn well in lower vel applications. For the 9mm & 40, tough to beat WSF, Univesal, Unique & VV340 for GP loads. Lots of powders work though & it's good to have options. Definitely get another manual & cross ref the powder manuf sites.

 

[recon14]

Getting back to the original question. I use 231, aka HP-38, and Clays for both 9 and 40

sent from my S III using TapaTalk

 

[Sunkist]

I would not want to be doing math conversions for rmeasuring powder. If the scale won't give you grains, regardless of the quality of it, buy a proper reloadign scale. Eventually, you'll screw the math up & potential problems are goign to happen, best to avoid such things. BTW, the Lee scale is pure craap. Yes it works, sort of, but there are far better scales for under $75. Go dig, you need to pay $100+ for repeatable precision & accuracy. Been there, done that. Cheap out on dies, but pay godo money for a proper scale.
Powders, all the ones you list will work, all are more appropriate for higher end vel loads. THey are in the upper end of what I call medium bruners. So they will not burn well in lower vel applications. For the 9mm & 40, tough to beat WSF, Univesal, Unique & VV340 for GP loads. Lots of powders work though & it's good to have options. Definitely get another manual & cross ref the powder manuf sites.

I'm with Fred on this all the way. Power Pistol is a great metering powder made especially for auto-pistols. I've shot more 10X's with it than anything else in .40's. I also use WSF as a Unique replacement for all cast bullet loads. It too meters well, is cleaner than Unique and is a medium burner which is what the .40 likes best.