News for Remington "FBI Load" fans:

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CoMF

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Apologies in advance if this has already been addressed, but while I was perusing MidwayUSA's website I noticed a new line of ammo from Remington called High Terminal Performance (HTP), and included in that line is the tried and true LHP (LSWCHP) +P!

The differences are where it gets interesting... According to Remington's own website, the new load has higher retained velocities and muzzle energy from a 4" vented test barrel (890/872/855 and 278/267/256 versus 890/855/823 and 278/257/238 at 0/50/100 yards, respectively), but has standard brass cases as opposed to the Express line's nickel plated ones and apparently will retail for less than the latter.

If anyone has any information to add about this new product line, please feel free to add to this thread. :) I can't wait until it becomes available so I can see for myself if the new HTP line is a better value than the old Express line. I'm especially curious to know how they achieved better RV/RME with the new stuff... Better powders? New bullet?
 
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This looks very promising indeed, I look forward to trying some. I prefer unplated brass anyways, so the changes all sound welcome to me.
 
Waywatcher said:
This looks very promising indeed, I look forward to trying some. I prefer unplated brass anyways, so the changes all sound welcome to me.
Click to expand...

If I reloaded, the brass cases would be a welcome change for me as well. My biggest concerns are the bullet being the same as the one that's been used for years (i.e. the one that "works" and has a proven track record), that the brass isn't the same cheap quality reserved for inexpensive plinking ammo, and that the QC isn't going to take a nose dive. I for one do not want to see a return to the days of misshapen bullet noses, sloppy primer sealing, bullet lube encrusted casings and bullets seated to the absolute bare minimum depth resulting in headaches with speedloaders due to the increased OAL.
 
This may show my ignorance but...why? Isn't the "FBI Loads" sole purpose to be shot out of snub noses? Their stating 20 fps and 10 FT LBS at 50 yards???
 
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markush said:
This may show my ignorance but...why? Isn't the "FBI Loads" sole purpose to be shot out of snub noses?
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Well, not exactly... It's just a happy coincidence that Remington's version of this load seems to work surprisingly well at snub nose velocities.

However, I can see why this may feel like Remington is "reinventing the wheel," so to speak.

markush said:
Their stating 20 fps and 10 FT LBS at 50 yards???
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Seems to be, if the numbers are to be believed. My biggest question is: How the heck are they accomplishing this? I half wonder if they changed the bullet...
 
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markush said:
This may show my ignorance but...why? Isn't the "FBI Loads" sole purpose to be shot out of snub noses? Their stating 20 fps and 10 FT LBS at 50 yards???
Click to expand...

The FBI traditionally issued "service revolvers," not snub nose revolvers. Their qualification course, until comparatively recently, had a 60 yard stage.
 
If both the old and new bullet are the same weight, and start at the same velocity, yet the new bullet retains down range velocity better, then they had to change the bullet somehow to slightly increase its BC.

Why, I don't know, as the increases are basically meaningless, and the soft lead Remington version of the FBI load always had a good reputation as it was for expansion and penetration.

Larry
 
Better BC bullet, I would think...........
What ever they did , I hope the bullet is still dead soft lead that will expand a little out of a snub nose.

I never checked..................Just shot them.
was the original "FBI" load a flat base, beveled base bullet or a small convex like some Federal target bullets?
 
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And Midway defines "coming soon" as 10/1/2013. I would expect that date gets moved back to sometime in 2014 at the earliest.
 
The general consensus seems to be that the most likely explanation for the mildly improved RV/RME numbers is a revised bullet design with a better ballistic coefficient. This makes perfect sense, at least to me anyway. However, I'm hoping it still retains the same construction and expansion characteristics of the Express bullet just as you folks are.

Also, a quick Google search has revealed that there's a smattering of online sellers that have it listed in their catalogs. Naturally, it's "sold out" across the board... :rolleyes: Then again, they could just be following the MidwayUSA example of listing something that hasn't even been released into mass circulation yet.

I'm going to see if my LGS can obtain some from their distributor later this week. If anyone's interested in trying to do the same, the Remington box number is RTP38S12. If, by some miracle, anybody is able to obtain some, by all means post some photos and perhaps a range review in a seperate thread. I intend to do the same if I can actually chase down this new load.
 
Call me a sentimental old fool, but I'm going to need so see some real testing to think this will really be an improvement. I've carried the Express version for years, and am thinking about trying the Buffalo Bore non-+P stuff for the same reason: soft lead and bullet construction that lends itself to expansion.
 
Appreciate CoMF's thread and all the feedback about the LHP upgrade. As do some other posters, I wonder what this 'improvement' will accomplish. If R-P wanted to improve the LHP, they should bump up the velocity back to the measured 1014 fps it chrono'd in a 4" revolver back in the mid 70s. That was a whizz-banger, as were many +Ps back then.

Afraid I won't be buying the 'new and improved.' I still have a couple of boxes of the 70s W-W ammo, both the SPD-LHP and the WCP semi-WC, to use W-W's terminology. No, they're not for sale:
they're presently gainfully employed in the chambers of my revolvers.

CoMF: Thanks again!
 
I'd be remiss if not warning folks against using the FBI LSWCHP+P load in lightweight snubbies like the 642 and 442. These will drive the light gun back sharply, and the remaining heavy bullets, through the principle of inertia at rest, tend to stay in place; the effect is that the bullets can and will pull from their cases and protrude from the face of the cylinder; this ties the gun up. The all-steel versions such as the 640 and 649 don't have this potential problem.

John
 
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kaaskop,

No problem, and you're quite welcome. I'm just happy to get the word out because I know this load has a pretty devoted following, myself included. :)

Also, I don't blame you one bit for holding on to that stash! If this new HTP line proves to be a waste of money, I fortunately have a decent quantity of the Express ammo stored away and will continue to buy it as long as Remington doesn't discontinue that line.
 
shouldazagged said:
Call me a sentimental old fool, but I'm going to need so see some real testing to think this will really be an improvement.
Click to expand...

Funny you should mention that. I wonder if we could find out the answer to that by sending a box (once it's available) and a small monetary donation to Brass Fetcher or tnoutdoors9? :D
 
PALADIN85020 said:
I'd be remiss if not warning folks against using the FBI LSWCHP+P load in lightweight snubbies like the 642 and 442. These will drive the light gun back sharply, and the remaining heavy bullets, through the principle of inertia at rest, tend to stay in place; the effect is that the bullets can and will pull from their cases and protrude from the face of the cylinder; this ties the gun up. The all-steel versions such as the 640 and 649 don't have this potential problem.

John
Click to expand...

I have not had this problem in the 642 or 442 using the Winchester version. I have not tried this load in the AirLight Ti revolver line, so I cannot speak to whether it occurs with the 342 and similar scandium/titanium revolvers.
 
shawn mccarver said:
I have not had this problem in the 642 or 442 using the Winchester version. I have not tried this load in the AirLight Ti revolver line, so I cannot speak to whether it occurs with the 342 and similar scandium/titanium revolvers.
Click to expand...

I have fired the Federal Nyclad 158 grain LSWCHP+P in my 340PD without a problem (other than very noticeable recoil).
 
Angel;

You might be on to something ?

Maybe they cleaned that test barrel real good and left a little oil in it to get those extra fps...............................

Did seem on the low side for a "New Improved" load.............
but we all know what that type of label means in the grocery store. Less weight or size and higher cost!!
 
Nevada Ed said:
Angel;

You might be on to something ?

Maybe they cleaned that test barrel real good and left a little oil in it to get those extra fps...............................

Did seem on the low side for a "New Improved" load.............
but we all know what that type of label means in the grocery store. Less weight or size and higher cost!!
Click to expand...
What bothers me about them telling you it's "New and Improved" means the original stuff was "Old and Crappy", no?? LOL
 
I wouldn't worry about bullet jumping if having a good tight crimp. I've shoot full blown 158gr .357 mag rounds in my 360 and the recoil is brutal, but no bullet jumping occurred.
 
Subtle changes in bullet design and lubrication might increase velocity slightly. This may be the route that the new Remington ammo took.
For example, a wasp-waisted bullet where only the front and rear portion of the bullet actually touch the rifling reduces friction.
Dry lubricants have improved somewhat over the years. However, the old Alox/Beeswax mix that has been used on cast bullets since the early 20th century is pretty hard to beat. It works well at every handgun bullet velocity.
Lead bullets with a knurled surface containing dry lubricant, such as those made by Hornady, is said to work better than grease grooves for holding lubricant. My own experiments show no difference between knurled bullets, or those simply sprayed or dipped in a liquid lubricant that dries.
Both work equally well up to about 1,000 fps, then leading becomes a big problem. This may be due more to the soft bullet alloy than the lubricant; I don't know of any bullet mould that produces a knurled bullet, or a device to put knurling on a conventional lead bullet, so experiments with a hard alloy bullet could be conducted.
In the 1960s, Super-Vel pioneered the concept of lighter jacketed handgun bullets at high velocity. Reloaders who tried to duplicate Super-Vel loads were generally stymied.
At the time, many believed that Super-Vel had access to a non-canister powder that gave it the edge.
At some point, the diameter of jacketed Super-Vel bullets, pulled from factory ammo, was measured. It was learned that Super-Vel was using .355" bullets in its .38 Special and .357 Magnum factory ammo: the smaller bullet created less friction than the standard .357 or .358" bullets that other factories used, aiding accuracy.
So perhaps the new Remington ammo has a very slightly reduced bullet size.
Super-Vel figured that its ammo would only be used out to 25 yards on the range, so a slight reduction in accuracy from using a smaller bullet wouldn't be noticed. And it wasn't.
Incidentally, for decades Colt was producing its double-action .357 Magnum revolvers with barrels measuring .355 and .356 inch. Smith & Wesson barrels ran .357.
Presumably, Super-Vel ammo was slightly more accurate in the Colts, but I've never seen that reported.
So, if I wanted to increase velocity without a resultant increase in pressure, and maintain the same bullet weight, I'd:
1. Reduce bullet diameter to .355 inch
2. Use the very finest dry lubricant I could find.
3. Create a bullet with minimal contact to the bore, probably a design where only the front and rear of the bullet ride the grooves.
It will be interesting to try this new Remington load, once shooters stop hoarding for the big U.N. gun takeaway, Zombie attack, end of civilization, legislation that strips citizen gun ownership from the Constitution or whatever they fear.
All of this hoarding is aggravating, but at least it's revealed which gun stores are friendly, and which have no qualms about gouging. After the shelves become restocked again, I'll remember who treated me decently -- and who looked upon me as a Walk-In Wallet.
 
Just FYI... my LGS had a ton of this in stock this afternoon. A good 'ol FBI load for $29 / 50 rounds isn't too bad of a deal in this environment. I don't believe the brass is "unplated" however. (It's nickle colored.)
 
I goofed up here, just popped on and posted before looking and basically duplicated your post. Didn't mean to step on your toes! Anyhoo, found these at a LGS for $28.00 a box.
 
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