Follow the OP's link to Midway. The price is approx. $10.00 CHEAPER than the original.
News for Remington "FBI Load" fans:
- Thread starter CoMF
- Start date
Follow the OP's link to Midway. The price is approx. $10.00 CHEAPER than the original.
safearm
US Veteran
I have fired the Federal Nyclad 158 grain LSWCHP+P in my 340PD without a problem (other than very noticeable recoil).
Angel;
You might be on to something ?
Maybe they cleaned that test barrel real good and left a little oil in it to get those extra fps...............................
Did seem on the low side for a "New Improved" load.............
but we all know what that type of label means in the grocery store. Less weight or size and higher cost!!
You might be on to something ?
Maybe they cleaned that test barrel real good and left a little oil in it to get those extra fps...............................
Did seem on the low side for a "New Improved" load.............
but we all know what that type of label means in the grocery store. Less weight or size and higher cost!!
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
What bothers me about them telling you it's "New and Improved" means the original stuff was "Old and Crappy", no?? LOL
MichiganScott
Member
Same here.
Gatofeo
Member
Subtle changes in bullet design and lubrication might increase velocity slightly. This may be the route that the new Remington ammo took.
For example, a wasp-waisted bullet where only the front and rear portion of the bullet actually touch the rifling reduces friction.
Dry lubricants have improved somewhat over the years. However, the old Alox/Beeswax mix that has been used on cast bullets since the early 20th century is pretty hard to beat. It works well at every handgun bullet velocity.
Lead bullets with a knurled surface containing dry lubricant, such as those made by Hornady, is said to work better than grease grooves for holding lubricant. My own experiments show no difference between knurled bullets, or those simply sprayed or dipped in a liquid lubricant that dries.
Both work equally well up to about 1,000 fps, then leading becomes a big problem. This may be due more to the soft bullet alloy than the lubricant; I don't know of any bullet mould that produces a knurled bullet, or a device to put knurling on a conventional lead bullet, so experiments with a hard alloy bullet could be conducted.
In the 1960s, Super-Vel pioneered the concept of lighter jacketed handgun bullets at high velocity. Reloaders who tried to duplicate Super-Vel loads were generally stymied.
At the time, many believed that Super-Vel had access to a non-canister powder that gave it the edge.
At some point, the diameter of jacketed Super-Vel bullets, pulled from factory ammo, was measured. It was learned that Super-Vel was using .355" bullets in its .38 Special and .357 Magnum factory ammo: the smaller bullet created less friction than the standard .357 or .358" bullets that other factories used, aiding accuracy.
So perhaps the new Remington ammo has a very slightly reduced bullet size.
Super-Vel figured that its ammo would only be used out to 25 yards on the range, so a slight reduction in accuracy from using a smaller bullet wouldn't be noticed. And it wasn't.
Incidentally, for decades Colt was producing its double-action .357 Magnum revolvers with barrels measuring .355 and .356 inch. Smith & Wesson barrels ran .357.
Presumably, Super-Vel ammo was slightly more accurate in the Colts, but I've never seen that reported.
So, if I wanted to increase velocity without a resultant increase in pressure, and maintain the same bullet weight, I'd:
1. Reduce bullet diameter to .355 inch
2. Use the very finest dry lubricant I could find.
3. Create a bullet with minimal contact to the bore, probably a design where only the front and rear of the bullet ride the grooves.
It will be interesting to try this new Remington load, once shooters stop hoarding for the big U.N. gun takeaway, Zombie attack, end of civilization, legislation that strips citizen gun ownership from the Constitution or whatever they fear.
All of this hoarding is aggravating, but at least it's revealed which gun stores are friendly, and which have no qualms about gouging. After the shelves become restocked again, I'll remember who treated me decently -- and who looked upon me as a Walk-In Wallet.
For example, a wasp-waisted bullet where only the front and rear portion of the bullet actually touch the rifling reduces friction.
Dry lubricants have improved somewhat over the years. However, the old Alox/Beeswax mix that has been used on cast bullets since the early 20th century is pretty hard to beat. It works well at every handgun bullet velocity.
Lead bullets with a knurled surface containing dry lubricant, such as those made by Hornady, is said to work better than grease grooves for holding lubricant. My own experiments show no difference between knurled bullets, or those simply sprayed or dipped in a liquid lubricant that dries.
Both work equally well up to about 1,000 fps, then leading becomes a big problem. This may be due more to the soft bullet alloy than the lubricant; I don't know of any bullet mould that produces a knurled bullet, or a device to put knurling on a conventional lead bullet, so experiments with a hard alloy bullet could be conducted.
In the 1960s, Super-Vel pioneered the concept of lighter jacketed handgun bullets at high velocity. Reloaders who tried to duplicate Super-Vel loads were generally stymied.
At the time, many believed that Super-Vel had access to a non-canister powder that gave it the edge.
At some point, the diameter of jacketed Super-Vel bullets, pulled from factory ammo, was measured. It was learned that Super-Vel was using .355" bullets in its .38 Special and .357 Magnum factory ammo: the smaller bullet created less friction than the standard .357 or .358" bullets that other factories used, aiding accuracy.
So perhaps the new Remington ammo has a very slightly reduced bullet size.
Super-Vel figured that its ammo would only be used out to 25 yards on the range, so a slight reduction in accuracy from using a smaller bullet wouldn't be noticed. And it wasn't.
Incidentally, for decades Colt was producing its double-action .357 Magnum revolvers with barrels measuring .355 and .356 inch. Smith & Wesson barrels ran .357.
Presumably, Super-Vel ammo was slightly more accurate in the Colts, but I've never seen that reported.
So, if I wanted to increase velocity without a resultant increase in pressure, and maintain the same bullet weight, I'd:
1. Reduce bullet diameter to .355 inch
2. Use the very finest dry lubricant I could find.
3. Create a bullet with minimal contact to the bore, probably a design where only the front and rear of the bullet ride the grooves.
It will be interesting to try this new Remington load, once shooters stop hoarding for the big U.N. gun takeaway, Zombie attack, end of civilization, legislation that strips citizen gun ownership from the Constitution or whatever they fear.
All of this hoarding is aggravating, but at least it's revealed which gun stores are friendly, and which have no qualms about gouging. After the shelves become restocked again, I'll remember who treated me decently -- and who looked upon me as a Walk-In Wallet.
feralcatkillr
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Just FYI... my LGS had a ton of this in stock this afternoon. A good 'ol FBI load for $29 / 50 rounds isn't too bad of a deal in this environment. I don't believe the brass is "unplated" however. (It's nickle colored.)
Moonman
Member
New AMMO, wanna bet the ATTORNEYS at Remington control the REAL ballistics.
Vulcan Bob
Member
I goofed up here, just popped on and posted before looking and basically duplicated your post. Didn't mean to step on your toes! Anyhoo, found these at a LGS for $28.00 a box.
That has been my experience, also, in my 342PD. Does Federal still make that ammo?
hotrod150
Member
"New and improved" or putting a fancy new name on an old standby generally means an increase in price. Hopefully that will not be the case.
Gents, thank you for helping keep this thread current. On another thread, Ben hutcherson was kind enough to post a photograph of the new HTP load at my behest. From the looks of it, it appears that Remington decided to continue using nickel plated cases as opposed to unplated brass.
Outwardly, the quality appears to be the same as the Express loading. It could just be me, but I'd swear the noses on the HTP were just ever so slightly more tapered.
Outwardly, the quality appears to be the same as the Express loading. It could just be me, but I'd swear the noses on the HTP were just ever so slightly more tapered.
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For those yearning for velocities from the 1970s.......
They were fired in unvented test barrels longer than standard pistol barrels and their pressures were measured by the copper crusher system.
The new piezo system has revealed higher than SAAMI spec pressures and vented barrels get closer to real world velocities.
They were fired in unvented test barrels longer than standard pistol barrels and their pressures were measured by the copper crusher system.
The new piezo system has revealed higher than SAAMI spec pressures and vented barrels get closer to real world velocities.
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I agree that this is more than likely the same old FBI load with a new box (and probably a new price). AFAIK they always sealed the primers and bullets with waterproofing and they always used a soft lead bullet meant to expand. So what's new??
There is however a MISTAKE with the technical data that is posted on Midway's site. They state the velocity is 945 fps yielding 248 ft lbs. of muzzle energy. For a 158 grain bullet moving at 945 the CORRECT muzzle energy SHOULD BE 313 foot pounds. So ....... either the velocity or the muzzle energy is incorrect.
That said..............
Buffalo Bore has the same configuration and weight bullet available NOW. To compare, out of a 4" bbl. Vel. is 1162 ft/sec. and the energy is 474 ft lbs. which is low end .357 Magnum ballistics and blows away the Remington.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=108
There is however a MISTAKE with the technical data that is posted on Midway's site. They state the velocity is 945 fps yielding 248 ft lbs. of muzzle energy. For a 158 grain bullet moving at 945 the CORRECT muzzle energy SHOULD BE 313 foot pounds. So ....... either the velocity or the muzzle energy is incorrect.
That said..............
Buffalo Bore has the same configuration and weight bullet available NOW. To compare, out of a 4" bbl. Vel. is 1162 ft/sec. and the energy is 474 ft lbs. which is low end .357 Magnum ballistics and blows away the Remington.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=108
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Well, well. If it isn't my favorite Buffalo Bore salesman.
Sorry Chief, but those little boutique boxes are not as good a value as the Remington 50-count boxes, nor do BB's bullets expand as reliably as the tried and true Remington version, at least as far as informal testing with the standard velocity version is concerned. (Besides, aren't those Rim Rock bullets supposed to be SOFTER?)
I have loads of scientific data to show that the Remington FBI load penetrates a minimum of 12" and expands more often than not from a snub. Do you have any test data to support the "more MV/ME is better" theory? Not trying to be snarky, but I'm not buying into the hype. Real world terminal ballistics and scientific testing appeal to me more than big MV/ME numbers.
If it doesn't penetrate at least 12" and isn't a fairly robust expander, I think I'll just stick with my "clunky," proven Remingtons.
dogngun
US Veteran
Yeah...It worked very well for all these years - no need to "fix" it...unless it's a sales gimick...
mark
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Well, well. If it isn't my favorite Buffalo Bore salesman.
Sorry Chief, but those little boutique boxes are not as good a value as the Remington 50-count boxes, nor do BB's bullets expand as reliably as the tried and true Remington version, at least as far as informal testing with the standard velocity version is concerned. (Besides, aren't those Rim Rock bullets supposed to be SOFTER?)
I have loads of scientific data to show that the Remington FBI load penetrates a minimum of 12" and expands more often than not from a snub. Do you have any test data to support the "more MV/ME is better" theory? Not trying to be snarky, but I'm not buying into the hype. Real world terminal ballistics and scientific testing appeal to me more than big MV/ME numbers.
If it doesn't penetrate at least 12" and isn't a fairly robust expander, I think I'll just stick with my "clunky," proven Remingtons.
Not bad-mouthing Remington's FBI load at all. It IS a reliable expander and has been around for many many years. Yes you are also correct that the Buffalo Bore 158 grain HP will not expand as much as the Remington will - tested them myself, but the BB does expand somewhat. To me shot placement is #1, Penetration is #2 and expansion is #3. I also agree that the Buffalo Bore ammo is costly - more than twice the price of the Remington, HOWEVER...... I also believe that the same weight slug moving out of my 2' Chief's Special at 200 fps faster will penetrate much better ( especially when winter clothing is worn ) and will mean much greater shocking (stopping) power. Penetration is needed to reach vital organs when heavy clothing is involved.
1025 ft/sec out of a 2" bbl. is low end .357 Magnum performance - and I don't think too many will argue that the .357 isn't much better than a 38 Special. Don't want to turn this into an p. match and that's why they make both I suppose. I just wanted to simply point out the advantages of the BB over the Big 3's offerings IF you like them.
Since I do not use them for regular plinking and target shooting the cost is not a major factor in which defense ammo I choose. For practice I hand load and thus the cost is irrelevant and I am not looking for a bargain when it comes to the cost for self defense ammunition - just the best I can get into my 2" M60.
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Oh by the way, just got off the phone with Remington and they confirmed that the "NEW HTP AMMO" in the 38 Special FBI load is the exact same ammo it has been and all that has changed is the packaging. The ballistics, bullet, powder, primers are identical to the R38S12 in the older packaging. Just thought some might be wondering.
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