NJ slapped down in LEOSA case

[ISCS Yoda]

I don't see this as a Second Amendment issue since it has nothing to do with gun rights for the people, only special privileges for retired gov't employees.

Everything that interferes with anyone's rights with respect to firearms is a Second Amendment issue, even if the issue is narrow in scope.

Not that I want one with the minefield imposed, but NJ doing non resident licenses?

When and if a statute is passed requiring the several states to treat carry permits the same way they treat driver's licenses* NJ will honor non-resident licenses. Granting its own non-resident licenses is never going to happen in NJ and I don't think any Federal law or court decision can change that.

*NB: There is no Federal requirement in re recognition of driver's licenses, not that I am aware of at any rate. The recognition is literally by an agreement between the states to do so, called the "Driver License Compact" if memory serves me correctly.

So I looked it up; I didn't want to say that incorrectly:

National Center for Interstate Compacts Database

© 2019 The Council of State Governments.

I think Georgia and Wisconsin are not included. One has to wonder why....

 

[Muss Muggins]

In the words of Jack Nicholson, I suggest you pick up a rifle and stand a post . . .

I don't see this as a Second Amendment issue since it has nothing to do with gun rights for the people, only special privileges for retired gov't employees.

 

[2ndshift]

EXACTLY! Muss Muggins could not have said it any better!

 

[Biggfoot44]

Yes , NJ has non resident carry permits . rare that they are . Primarily for A/ Truck and armed couriers passing thru to NYC .

 

[Paul in Nevada]

In the words of Jack Nicholson, I suggest you pick up a rifle and stand a post . . .

I don't have to buy my rights, they were given to me by God.

And LEO's, while I respect them tremendously, are all volunteers who are paid for what they do. They aren't Knights Errant out of Camelot who battle evil strictly for the sake of goodness, eschewing all reward and subsisting on prayer and bread crusts. I think LEOSA is an awesome perk of the job and I wholeheartedly support it. But in a way it actually splits LEO's off from the rest of the 2A community. Besides LEOSA I'll give you another example. There is a continuously dwindling list of handguns available to CA residents. There are magazine caps and semi auto bans. But LE are exempt from these rules. I am sure many other states have similar exemptions. Now tell me, is that equal treatment under the law, or special privileges for an elite few? Do these special privileges de-incentivize 2A activism for LEO's? After all, they live under a different set of rules. I have a retired cop friend who served in a rough CA metropolitan PD force for many years. It made him a very cynical man. He is a strong supporter of gun rights but he doesn't really care what happens in CA any more. He has written off the entire state as lost. Oh, but he can still CCW there when he visits friends and family. He has no incentive to fight for CCW rights because he enjoys a special privilege from his former employers.
I sincerely hope LEOSA is fully restored in NJ but let's not conflate this issue with 2A rights, because that's not what is being argued here. The issue at hand is the Federal Supremacy Clause of the Constitution. The outcome of this battle will change absolutely nothing for NJ residents or people visiting from other states.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Duly noted. We will never agree on this issue. I wish you well . . .

I don't have to buy my rights, they were given to me by God.

And LEO's, while I respect them tremendously, are all volunteers who are paid for what they do. They aren't Knights Errant out of Camelot who battle evil strictly for the sake of goodness, eschewing all reward and subsisting on prayer and bread crusts. I think LEOSA is an awesome perk of the job and I wholeheartedly support it. But in a way it actually splits LEO's off from the rest of the 2A community. Besides LEOSA I'll give you another example. There is a continuously dwindling list of handguns available to CA residents. There are magazine caps and semi auto bans. But LE are exempt from these rules. I am sure many other states have similar exemptions. Now tell me, is that equal treatment under the law, or special privileges for an elite few? Do these special privileges de-incentivize 2A activism for LEO's? After all, they live under a different set of rules. I have a retired cop friend who served in a rough CA metropolitan PD force for many years. It made him a very cynical man. He is a strong supporter of gun rights but he doesn't really care what happens in CA any more. He has written off the entire state as lost. Oh, but he can still CCW there when he visits friends and family. He has no incentive to fight for CCW rights because he enjoys a special privilege from his former employers.
I sincerely hope LEOSA is fully restored in NJ but let's not conflate this issue with 2A rights, because that's not what is being argued here. The issue at hand is the Federal Supremacy Clause of the Constitution. The outcome of this battle will change absolutely nothing for NJ residents or people visiting from other states.

 

[Waldo]

I don't see this as a Second Amendment issue since it has nothing to do with gun rights for the people, only special privileges for retired gov't employees.

I signed in just to like this post. I could not agree more.

 

[mexicanjoe]

When you have worked undercover and have a target on your back , youll know why retired should be allowed to carry. IF the retirees can carry, then thats a foot in the door for law abiding citizens to carry! NJ has had a history of anti-gun indoctrination, its time the citizens started a push the other direction. I know a lot of people vote dem because" our family has always voted that way'. Wake up , pull your head out and turn that ship around, it takes time to change a regime mentality but it needs to start somewhere. They tried that here in Texas and it didnt work. I agree we need to buildl a wall------- around Cali and NJ.

 

[GaryS]

I'm not sure that it matters if you've worked undercover or spent your entire career in uniform.

Some people will hold a grudge for years and some of those people are quite willing to use violence to avenge being "wronged."

There was a whole movie about it called "High Noon."

When you have worked undercover and have a target on your back , youll know why retired should be allowed to carry. IF the retirees can carry, then thats a foot in the door for law abiding citizens to carry! NJ has had a history of anti-gun indoctrination, its time the citizens started a push the other direction. I know a lot of people vote dem because" our family has always voted that way'. Wake up , pull your head out and turn that ship around, it takes time to change a regime mentality but it needs to start somewhere. They tried that here in Texas and it didnt work. I agree we need to buildl a wall------- around Cali and NJ.

 

[Smoke]

I believe that, as stated previously, special privileges for law enforcement disincentivizes a pro Second Amendment stance by police unions.

I wonder what would happen if American law enforcement adopted a Canadian type model. Where police officers draw their Duty Weapon from the Armory at the beginning of their shifts and and return it to the Armory at the end of their shift. And while off duty they carry under the exact same restrictions as their citizen counterparts.

I wonder what would happen if all future gun legislation had no special carve outs for law enforcement.

I wonder what would happen if the above was implemented and every cop in the nation started pressuring their unions not to support these bills.

And while we're here, this is in reply to Muss Muggins' comment about grabbing a rifle and standing a post.



I did bro, on the real wall . The exact wall that Jack Nicholson was talking about, didn't see you anywhere around.

 

[old tanker]

I took two lessons away from my Constitutional Law class. The first one was don't be a test case. Even if you eventually "win", you've experienced major financial loss and aggravation as well as possible jail time. Let someone else get their name on an appellate decision.

You are right there!!!

"A New Jersey appeals court on Thursday overturned the gun possession conviction of a former federal prison officer by finding the judge at her trial failed to extend to her an exemption (LEOSA) for federal law enforcement.

The decision also overturned the sentence of Dana R. Johnson, but the Gloucester County resident has already served three years in prison."

An inept or vindictive New Jersey judge has destroyed a woman's life. Her career ended, wages and future pension lost. The ultimate irony, her conviction was overturned after she had finished her prison sentence!

One can only hope she can get some recompense, but what could possibly be adequate?

https://www.njcourts.gov/sites/default/files/court-opinions/2022/a5622-18.pdf

 

[Smoke]

What could possibly be adequate?

Let's start with New Jersey funds whatever retirement she would have earned at the highest level she could have achieved had she been able to keep her job for the full 20 years.

If her retirement benefits included medical New Jersey pays those too.

Then we'll go with New Jersey pays her for all lost wages, adjusted for inflation and any possible promotion she may have missed out on. Plus all holiday and overtime pay.

Then (conservatively) 2 million Bucks a year every year that she spent incarcerated.

Since it's a settlement and not income it's not taxable.

 

[Muss Muggins]

I’ve dealt with this a couple times in my career. All states have laws governing these circumstances. Generally capped at $50k per year. NJ is a little unusual with a “twice the earnings in the most recent full year before incarceration” or $20k, whichever is greater. Additional compensation is possible by suing the offending agency and officer, which usually results in a policy limit settlement. Most, if not all officers don’t have anything worth going after, so you’re usually stuck with the agency insurance . . .

https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Documents/CompensationByState_InnocenceProject.pdf

Let's start with New Jersey funds whatever retirement she would have earned at the highest level she could have achieved had she been able to keep her job for the full 20 years.

If her retirement benefits included medical New Jersey pays those too.

Then we'll go with New Jersey pays her for all lost wages, adjusted for inflation and any possible promotion she may have missed out on. Plus all holiday and overtime pay.

Then (conservatively) 2 million Bucks a year every year that she spent incarcerated.

Since it's a settlement and not income it's not taxable.

 

[Sevens]

How do we define the terms of taking up arms and standing a post? Fact is, I do and I have. My post is small, it's merely my own castle. I expect NO HELP WHATSOEVER from paid govt boots, pretty sure that my security is 100% on me.

This includes the time that myself and my wife and two young children returned home on a Monday 1pm with groceries... to find nineteen police cars in, around and leading up to the court where my house was. And the cops on the scene sent me in to my own house to clear it without their help. They suggested that I be careful in doing so, because they had not yet captured the armed bank robber who led them on a vehicle chase and dumped his stolen car in my next door neighbor's driveway.

I didn't get paid for clearing my house that time either and dangit, I definitely cannot carry a concealed handgun in New Jersey.

 

[ladder13]

……….
I did bro, on the real wall . The exact wall that Jack Nicholson was talking about, didn't see you anywhere around.

That’s about the funniest thing I’ve seen here in months.

 

[old tanker]

Smoke, that's not enough by my reckoning, but as Muss points out, that's likely way more than New Jersey will potentially pay. Sovereign immunity and all that.

You only get to sue the King as much as he allows.

 

[Smoke]

How do we define the terms of taking up arms and standing a post?

In context Colonel Jessup was talking about guarding America against Communist aggression.

He even claimed that MaCaffrey "Rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide."

The funny thing is at that particular time frame there was no wall in Cuba. It was a Minefield and a barbed wire fence and what was really funny is that Cuban Nationals crossed the barbed wire fence every day to work on base.

 

[LVSteve]

Seems that NJ has that same disease that CA and certain other states with big populations suffer from: They are incapable of accepting federal preemption. I believe the last time this came to a head it got pretty ugly in the 1860s. Now, the debate as to whether federal preemption should ever have become a thing is an argument for somewhere else other than this forum, as laid out in The Rules.

 

[Muss Muggins]

It’s a movie, with no basis in fact . . .

In context Colonel Jessup was talking about guarding America against Communist aggression.

He even claimed that MaCaffrey "Rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide."

The funny thing is at that particular time frame there was no wall in Cuba. It was a Minefield and a barbed wire fence and what was really funny is that Cuban Nationals crossed the barbed wire fence every day to work on base.

 

[luvsmiths]

And while we're here, this is in reply to Muss Muggins' comment about grabbing a rifle and standing a post.



I did bro, on the real wall . The exact wall that Jack Nicholson was talking about, didn't see you anywhere around.

Hang on. You should be getting an answer of some sort anytime now.