If I was a bullseye shooter,I'd buy a set of Lyman's dies and test it.
No flare for cast bullets?
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I just wrote Matt Dardas a letter with a few question I have for him. I just got in a Dardas 10K bullet order and so we'll see what he says to the questions I posed regarding the flare.
I can see his point and because he is a competitive shooter I guess we have to take what he says seriously, I just question HOW MUCH of an accuracy difference there might actually be.
I am NOT bragging here, but I can still put 10 .38 Specials into a 1.25" - 1.5" group at a 50 foot indoor range quite consistently with one of my M15's, M19's, M586's and .45 acp Gold Cup as well. I have always used a slight flare while reloading and always thought that it would prevent bullets and case distortion. I load hard cast lead exclusively and most of the bullets I've gotten over the past 30 years or so were not nearly as good as his are. I have not shot any of his bullets yet, but I have loaded some up and I can't wait to see the results - and yes I did flare the cases. I'll also let you guys know what his response is.
Chief38
I can see his point and because he is a competitive shooter I guess we have to take what he says seriously, I just question HOW MUCH of an accuracy difference there might actually be.
I am NOT bragging here, but I can still put 10 .38 Specials into a 1.25" - 1.5" group at a 50 foot indoor range quite consistently with one of my M15's, M19's, M586's and .45 acp Gold Cup as well. I have always used a slight flare while reloading and always thought that it would prevent bullets and case distortion. I load hard cast lead exclusively and most of the bullets I've gotten over the past 30 years or so were not nearly as good as his are. I have not shot any of his bullets yet, but I have loaded some up and I can't wait to see the results - and yes I did flare the cases. I'll also let you guys know what his response is.
Chief38
varmint243
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I have 37 pieces of flair
(sorry I couldn't resist)
IMO you need a little bell and should try to start the bullet straight.
I modified my seater plug to match the bullet nose.
IMO basics, basics, basics, sight alignment, trigger control, breathing, and all that are the most important things in handgun shooting.
Most quality guns/loads are up to the task.
(sorry I couldn't resist)
IMO you need a little bell and should try to start the bullet straight.
I modified my seater plug to match the bullet nose.
IMO basics, basics, basics, sight alignment, trigger control, breathing, and all that are the most important things in handgun shooting.
Most quality guns/loads are up to the task.
Looking at Lyman's sight ,it looks like a 2 step expansion of the brass with a very slight flare at the top.
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Just got a return email from Matt Dardas and he makes somewhat of a good point about using the Lyman 2 step Expander M Die. In essence I suppose it is sort of a "substitute flare" if you will because it still gives the bullet clearance to be seated - just in a different way. So let's NOT think he just wants us to shove bullets into unprepared cases. NOT so radical after all.
I went online and see that they are not expensive, about $22 so and I just might try one and see if there is any big difference. If there is a big difference in the .38 Specials, I might get one for other calibers, but if a magnifying lens is needed to tell the difference I'll just stick with my Dillon Carbide. I will have to adjust the powder drop station to drop powder ONLY and NOT flare the case. I have an extra station (currently empty) in my Dillon 650 so it should not be a problem to add this thing.
I learned one thing about competition in general - be it shooting or what-ever........... and that is ANY ADVANTAGE (even a very small one) might give a psychological advantage as well as a physical advantage, but for most of us "plinkers" I'll see if the advantage is worth the price of admission. I always like trying new machinery.
Chief38
I went online and see that they are not expensive, about $22 so and I just might try one and see if there is any big difference. If there is a big difference in the .38 Specials, I might get one for other calibers, but if a magnifying lens is needed to tell the difference I'll just stick with my Dillon Carbide. I will have to adjust the powder drop station to drop powder ONLY and NOT flare the case. I have an extra station (currently empty) in my Dillon 650 so it should not be a problem to add this thing.
I learned one thing about competition in general - be it shooting or what-ever........... and that is ANY ADVANTAGE (even a very small one) might give a psychological advantage as well as a physical advantage, but for most of us "plinkers" I'll see if the advantage is worth the price of admission. I always like trying new machinery.
Chief38
Just wondered what that guy had in his coffee before he started that article?
The Flat Base bullet is inside the bell or flaring when seated due to its smaller diameter. How does it get shaved?
Some ream the inside of their cases..........this also shaves lead ?? !!
Only time I ever get shavings is on the crimp station, some times......... then I know it is time to clean my die.
The Flat Base bullet is inside the bell or flaring when seated due to its smaller diameter. How does it get shaved?
Some ream the inside of their cases..........this also shaves lead ?? !!
Only time I ever get shavings is on the crimp station, some times......... then I know it is time to clean my die.
I would beg to differ with the bullet manufacturer. I recently loaded 50 .45 ACP bevel-base RNs without flaring the cases (Don't ask), and I can vouch that it will shave lead if you don't.
The problem with flaring is too many over-flare. Also, not chamfering the case mouth will cause lead shaving. As for the Lyman "M" expander, it does the same thing my RCBS expanders do. Lee, not so much.
The problem with flaring is too many over-flare. Also, not chamfering the case mouth will cause lead shaving. As for the Lyman "M" expander, it does the same thing my RCBS expanders do. Lee, not so much.
ozo
Member
" The bullet rotates on top of the radius edge that you created by flaring the case mouth. You then have to hope and pray that the seater stem will capture the nose of the bullet and re-right it to make it straight with the case - it isn't going happen!"
This is hard for me to grip.....does it mean if I don't bell the mouth my projectile will automatically stay straight ? Maybe the article was written in a different language.....and the translation is what has worded it this way ?????
I think I know what he is trying to say.....in the entire article.....but has not conveyed it properly. As a whole, it makes no sense to me.
This is hard for me to grip.....does it mean if I don't bell the mouth my projectile will automatically stay straight ? Maybe the article was written in a different language.....and the translation is what has worded it this way ?????
I think I know what he is trying to say.....in the entire article.....but has not conveyed it properly. As a whole, it makes no sense to me.
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Apparently Dardas is not advocating just jamming a bullet into an unprepared case, but the Lyman Die he is recommending actually does open up the case mouth to a larger diameter than the rest of the case when resizing it. So while it is not being called a flare, nor is it a flare in the traditional sense of the word, it is opening up the case just enough to accept the bullet without shaving lead.
SO............. how much is this going to improve accuracy? I can not really answer that without trying it first, and quite honestly I doubt that most of us here would actually notice any difference at all. I am sure there are some here that are superb shots and the method Dardas recommends might benefit them to some small extent. Is it worth the price of admission? I actually might try one of these Dies and see what happens.
ANALOGY:
Some car manufacturers (BMW for one) puts their air intakes underneath the engine so that the engine sucks in cooler air then if it were on top of the engine. The theory is that cooler air will increase horsepower a few percent. However having the air intake underneath the motor can and does cause catastrophic engine failure when a hot engine sucks up water on a rainy night.
This has actually happened to two people I know and both of their engines seized. BMW refused to warranty the engines because they said it was the operators fault water entered the hot engine. Both my friends hired lawyers and eventually got their new engines paid for, but WHAT A HASSLE!!! For a few measly horsepower was it worth it?
So - is the benefit from the special die worth the hassle? We'll see!
SO............. how much is this going to improve accuracy? I can not really answer that without trying it first, and quite honestly I doubt that most of us here would actually notice any difference at all. I am sure there are some here that are superb shots and the method Dardas recommends might benefit them to some small extent. Is it worth the price of admission? I actually might try one of these Dies and see what happens.
ANALOGY:
Some car manufacturers (BMW for one) puts their air intakes underneath the engine so that the engine sucks in cooler air then if it were on top of the engine. The theory is that cooler air will increase horsepower a few percent. However having the air intake underneath the motor can and does cause catastrophic engine failure when a hot engine sucks up water on a rainy night.
This has actually happened to two people I know and both of their engines seized. BMW refused to warranty the engines because they said it was the operators fault water entered the hot engine. Both my friends hired lawyers and eventually got their new engines paid for, but WHAT A HASSLE!!! For a few measly horsepower was it worth it?
So - is the benefit from the special die worth the hassle? We'll see!
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hangnoose
Member
CASE FLARING
IMO that article is hogwash intended to promote sales of THEIR PRODUCT. How is a 2 stage ID different from a flare or bell? If the mouth of the case ID is larger than the lower ID of the case IT'S FLARED. "THOU SHALT NOT FLARE CASES" Who wrote that nonsense, MOSES? If the ID of the case flared or not, at any point is smaller than the diameter of the cast bullet, (especially a bullet with a flat base), I see 3 possible outcomes (any or all could happen) 1- the bullet get's shaved, 2- the bullet gets compressed, 3- the case gets expanded to fit the larger diameter of the bullet.
IMO that article is hogwash intended to promote sales of THEIR PRODUCT. How is a 2 stage ID different from a flare or bell? If the mouth of the case ID is larger than the lower ID of the case IT'S FLARED. "THOU SHALT NOT FLARE CASES" Who wrote that nonsense, MOSES? If the ID of the case flared or not, at any point is smaller than the diameter of the cast bullet, (especially a bullet with a flat base), I see 3 possible outcomes (any or all could happen) 1- the bullet get's shaved, 2- the bullet gets compressed, 3- the case gets expanded to fit the larger diameter of the bullet.
The newer RCBS dies use a M-type step or at least the ones I've purchased recently do.
fredj338
Member
Dardas is using semantics. THe Lyman M is flaring or belling or what ever you want to call it, but you are NOT getting a flat based lead bullet into a case cleanly w/o doing something to open the case mouth. The M die is certainly a better apporach, but flaring works too.
I would also submit that more people shave lead from the side of the bullet by seating & crimping in one step. If the seating stem fits the bullet nose, the bullet will seat straight enough to not shave anything off the side of the bullet.
I would also submit that more people shave lead from the side of the bullet by seating & crimping in one step. If the seating stem fits the bullet nose, the bullet will seat straight enough to not shave anything off the side of the bullet.
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I read the whole thing....
I read the article in it's entirety before I commented, which led me to ask the tough questions about whether or not to flare my cases. Again, at present,:
I flare pistol cases because I've had trouble seating bullets without it. My new 9mm set has an 'M' die and it works just fine.
I don't flare 30-06 (I do bevel) and was going to get an 'M' die for my 30-06 but I pretty much proved that I didn't need it.
I don't see any reason to change what I'm doing, unless i can prove or have it proved to me that case necks size the bullet down. Why isn't this more common knowledge?
I guess the best way to prove it would be to seat a lead bullet and pull it to see if the dimensions have changed. Whoever does that first come back to this thread and let everybody know what happens. I'd like to try it with swaged and hard cast bullets.
I read the article in it's entirety before I commented, which led me to ask the tough questions about whether or not to flare my cases. Again, at present,:
I flare pistol cases because I've had trouble seating bullets without it. My new 9mm set has an 'M' die and it works just fine.
I don't flare 30-06 (I do bevel) and was going to get an 'M' die for my 30-06 but I pretty much proved that I didn't need it.
I don't see any reason to change what I'm doing, unless i can prove or have it proved to me that case necks size the bullet down. Why isn't this more common knowledge?
I guess the best way to prove it would be to seat a lead bullet and pull it to see if the dimensions have changed. Whoever does that first come back to this thread and let everybody know what happens. I'd like to try it with swaged and hard cast bullets.
mkk41
US Veteran
Don't care how 'hard' ya cast yer bullets , brass is still harder! 
For jacketed, I flare just enough to start the bullet into the case mouth.
For cast, I flare a wee bit more than for jacketed.
I always seat & crimp cast boolits in separate steps. I have been pleased with the accuracy of my reloads.
Somehow I think that I am the weak link in the accuracy equation.
I don't own any M dies, but I may try one if I run across a deal. I understand the concept of what the Lyman marketing purports, but would be genuinely surprised if any notable difference in accuracy will be noted. Logically, I feel like I wouldn't even notice any difference at all.
I will keep an open mind on the subject, however.
Lyman has introduced doubt into my mind that I am making the best possible loads, thus the marketing has worked to some extent.
Anyone want to do a side by side comparison?
For cast, I flare a wee bit more than for jacketed.
I always seat & crimp cast boolits in separate steps. I have been pleased with the accuracy of my reloads.
Somehow I think that I am the weak link in the accuracy equation.
I don't own any M dies, but I may try one if I run across a deal. I understand the concept of what the Lyman marketing purports, but would be genuinely surprised if any notable difference in accuracy will be noted. Logically, I feel like I wouldn't even notice any difference at all.
I will keep an open mind on the subject, however.
Lyman has introduced doubt into my mind that I am making the best possible loads, thus the marketing has worked to some extent.
Anyone want to do a side by side comparison?
Hard cast vs swaged
Not which one is harder, but will hard cast bullets deform under neck tension? How about swaged?
Don't care how 'hard' ya cast yer bullets , brass is still harder!
Not which one is harder, but will hard cast bullets deform under neck tension? How about swaged?
FWIW...Be careful when ordering the Lyman M Expander Die. I load 9's. I ordered one from Amazon, Amazon itself, not one of their sub vendors, used the correct part #, and received a Lyman Taper Crimp Die! I just sent it back & got the refund. Then I ordered straight from Lyman. Got the same product: a crimp die!!! I got a refund for that order, did not trust the cust. service person to get it right for an exchange. I double checked the part # and I ordered correctly. Why I got the crimp die from 2 different places is beyond me. Next, I ordered from Midway...Success!!!
I compared & contrasted the Lyman M with my Lee Powder Thru Expander, they're pretty much equal. The Lyman drops into the case a little further for a deeper expansion but that's about it. I pulled bullets from both and didn't get any lead slivers. At the range, both produce an equal product.
I buy from Darda's as well. I like his barrel slugging program: send to him your slugged lead balls and he'll email back to you a reading. Good stuff!
I compared & contrasted the Lyman M with my Lee Powder Thru Expander, they're pretty much equal. The Lyman drops into the case a little further for a deeper expansion but that's about it. I pulled bullets from both and didn't get any lead slivers. At the range, both produce an equal product.
I buy from Darda's as well. I like his barrel slugging program: send to him your slugged lead balls and he'll email back to you a reading. Good stuff!
gaijin
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Where in the heck did you read that??
I bell all pistol cases, irregardless of bullet type, with no problems.
A good way to "shave lead" when seating a cast bullet is NOT to flare the case.
I use Dillon, RCBS and Hornady pistol dies, none which have been a problem flaring/seating bullets of any type.
I have had NO PROBLEMS loading this way for a LOT of years.
