No serial numbers on this relic?

[RichNestor]

I am in possession of a pistol that says -

"Schofield 44 S&W CFGE" on the top rail
"20" on frame
Very thick "7", "E" with a star above, and "LEG" with a star above in an oval
all on the cylinder

No serial number on frame, cylinder, butt of gun, or under the grip

The 44 looks to have been stamped over a lighter, maybe 32 or 38 stamp.

Any idea what this is and why no serial numbers.

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

I believe this is a Belgium copy. The oval proof mark is from
there.

Cheers!
Webb

 

[mmaher94087]

Agree. Belgium copy with S&W stocks applied to deceive.

 

[RichNestor]

So Belgian from somewhere between 1810 and 1853? Would love to find out more about age, details of other marks and why it says Schofield S&W?

 

[cgt4570]

So Belgian from somewhere between 1810 and 1853? Would love to find out more about age, details of other marks and why it says Schofield S&W?

It most likely would have been made sometime between the mid 1870s and the turn of the century. Lots of copywrite infringement guns out there. Quality varies all over the place.

 

[glowe]

Welcome to the Forum. Definitely 1880s or later, as successful cartridge revolvers only date back to around 1860 in the US. The double action was perfected sometime around 1880. The first successful 44 was the Smith & Wesson American starting production in 1870. This model spawned some big orders from Russia totaling around 200,000 revolvers by 1878. The first large caliber double-action revolver made by S&W started production in 1881 and is called 44 Double Action First Model by collectors.

Several copies were made from several European countries like Germany, Belgium, Turkey, etc. Patent protection was all but non-existent in these years of production and as far as I know, S&W was never successful in winning a patent infringement case in Europe back then. The Paris Convention of 1883 was the start of International Patent protection laws between Europe and other countries, but I believe that copies were still produced into the early 1900s.

I had a very similar Belgium copy and it was chambered in 44-40, not 44 Russian, fitted for what was called a Bridgeport rig for fast draw. I shot it, but believe the bore was too large as it did not hit much of what I aimed at!! Not big value, but some collectors are out there. I sold mine with belt for $450 in 2019.

Now that I look at both, I believe they were made in the same factory!! (added pictures)

 

[Exmilcop]

For sure Belgium. That is the Liege proof mark which is a dead giveaway. As others have noted, European patent infringements were difficult to prosecute.

 

[JSR III]

I am going to go way out on a limb here and say that it is a Belgium copy!!

 

[BMur]

Copy

Yours in a Pre-1890 copy. Black Powder proof marks and lacking the "Made in Belgium" stamp that was required of imports post 1891 to legally avoid "fooling the buyer" that they were buying a Smith & Wesson product.

Also, as I have mentioned several times on this forum, if you look under the left grip on the frame they are very often stamped on the metal with the maker mark. In other words, what gunmaker manufactured this particular gun. Usually in capitol letters. I have a book on bulldog production that identifies most of them. Bulldogs follow these larger framed copies almost exactly.

It has also been proven by research that many of these copies were made specifically for Major Distributors on contract from Belgium manufacturers to be sold in the USA in catalog order items (Mail order guns).

The first thing collectors want to do is of course trash talk them but there is a lot of history to these copies that was actually generated by American Major Distributors on contract. In other words they ordered them to be sold here at competitive prices.

They are advertised in older Distributor catalogs that date back to the early 1880's of which I have several.

Murph

 

[2152hq]

The oval ELG proof mark is Belgian/Leige Proof Hs
It's what they called a reduced format style for handguns.
The exact same mark in a larger size was used on long arms.

It's the Definitive (Final) Black Powder Proof mark.
Used in the time from the 1870 right up to the mid 1920's.

Of course Smokeless Powder was used at the turn of the Century and forward. If the revolver had been proofed for Smokeless/Nitro powder,
there would be another set/style of proof marks from Leige on the gun showing so.

There are a couple of Proof House Inspectors marks still showing on the gun.
One on the rear face of the cylinder and another on the breech end of the bbl/RH side.
These are simple Capital Letters with a very small Star above them.
The Star indicates they were used after about 1877.
Prior to then and going back to the early 1850's, the Star would have been an equally as small Crown.

There is no record of who the Inspector Marks were assigned to AFAIK.
These marks are different from the 'Proof Controllers Mark' which was applied in years later. The 'Proof Master of the Leige Proof Facility' would be another title for the Proof Controller. Those marks are on record an easily looked up.

Proof 'Date Code' wasn't used till starting in 1921.

There should be quite a number of additional Leige Proof Hs marks on the gun. Both on the Bbl and Frame.
The gun looks to me to have been 'scrubbed' of any of those markings save for those few we can now see.

A ser# may have dissappeared with that OR it may be hiding under one of the grip panels on the grip frame.

The S&W grips added for extra neon to try and say it's real.
But the grips look like they needed some trimming around the top edge of the round portion to make them fit the Belgium frame.

There is also 'De-Farbing' when a modern Repro of an Antique is scrubbed of it's Modern Mfgr markings so it then carries the Old Time look. A Defarb usually gets an aged finish applied as well. The Living History folks like the been there,done that look.


Orig Belgian makers mark may be under those grips on the grip frame as pointed out already. Usually just initials. Sometimes in an oval or circle.
If there you can search on the LittleGun Belgian Makers site and sometimes find the actual maker and some info.

Nouvelle page 0

 

[gmborkovic]

Mr. 2152, thanks for the "de-farbing" clue. Good info.