Noob needs a recommendation
- Thread starter Bushwack44
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Bushwack44
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Here an update: Things got squirly with the mounts. I have the P-223 Nikon scope (3x32) and still in search of QD mounts (AR is for range use only). I tried a UTG 1/2" mount but the scope wouldn't clear the rear sight. As I'd prefer to stay with a QD mount, either I'll get the same UTG rings but in 1" (I've had good luck with UTG) or I may succumb to using the individual P series rings (would prefer two rings vs a one piece/two ring set-up).
On a related note, I find it odd I can't find a picture on the 'net of an M&P AR15 with the Nikon 3x32 scope (that many praise) and the P-series mount. I just want to see the set-up that it clears the rear sight (or even with different mounts).
On a related note, I find it odd I can't find a picture on the 'net of an M&P AR15 with the Nikon 3x32 scope (that many praise) and the P-series mount. I just want to see the set-up that it clears the rear sight (or even with different mounts).
Forgive me for being forward but why are you buying an AR when your intention is to shoot 400 yards in the future? The Sport is a fine rifle but I don't think it's going to do all that well at 400 yards without some pretty serious upgrades. And a 3X scope isn't really something intended to get you out that far either. It certainly can be done but most people pick a more powerful scope for longer distances like that. It's actually bad to go with a scope that is too powerful because of mirage issues but at 400 yards you're just starting to get into the distance where that becomes a factor.
I've shot AR's built for accurate, long range shooting at my gun club on the 400 yard range. I shot an AR-10 with a heavy barrel for example. The larger bullet from an AR-10 will stay on course better because of the weight it isn't affected by the wind so much. I also have a bolt action .223 that's built for shooting that distance and farther. I've shot several AR's out to 400 yards actually. I've never seen one come close to the accuracy of the bolt action rifle I have. That bolt action rifle I have is a particularly accurate rifle (Savage 12 LRPV with the target action) and I have a Weaver 36X scope mounted on it. For a long time I had an 18X scope on it. That rifle shoots 5" groups at 400 yards. I've never seen an AR shoot better than maybe 18" at that distance. Maybe I just didn't get to shoot a good example. I know some AR's do shoot very accurate but they are purpose built examples and not entry level rifles with 3X optics.
I don't mean to offend you. I just wonder if you've thought about these things because it isn't going to be that easy to shoot well at that distance with that rifle IMO. I bought my Sport as a 100-200 yard maximum range rifle. Most of my shooting will be inside 100 yards. Mine is pretty accurate for a rifle of this type. But it won't come close to what a dedicated long range rifle will do. I think you'll find it's pretty darn hard to hit anything smaller than a 18" target at 400 yards with the Sport and that's probably being optimistic.
You say you want to buy a better AR down the road. I believe I would make that rifle your long range AR. If I wanted a 400 yard capable rifle now I'd be getting a bolt action. From what I understand you haven't bought an AR yet. There's plenty to like about them. But shooting 400 yards with what is really more M4 than AR (judging by barrel length) is pretty ambitious.
I've shot AR's built for accurate, long range shooting at my gun club on the 400 yard range. I shot an AR-10 with a heavy barrel for example. The larger bullet from an AR-10 will stay on course better because of the weight it isn't affected by the wind so much. I also have a bolt action .223 that's built for shooting that distance and farther. I've shot several AR's out to 400 yards actually. I've never seen one come close to the accuracy of the bolt action rifle I have. That bolt action rifle I have is a particularly accurate rifle (Savage 12 LRPV with the target action) and I have a Weaver 36X scope mounted on it. For a long time I had an 18X scope on it. That rifle shoots 5" groups at 400 yards. I've never seen an AR shoot better than maybe 18" at that distance. Maybe I just didn't get to shoot a good example. I know some AR's do shoot very accurate but they are purpose built examples and not entry level rifles with 3X optics.
I don't mean to offend you. I just wonder if you've thought about these things because it isn't going to be that easy to shoot well at that distance with that rifle IMO. I bought my Sport as a 100-200 yard maximum range rifle. Most of my shooting will be inside 100 yards. Mine is pretty accurate for a rifle of this type. But it won't come close to what a dedicated long range rifle will do. I think you'll find it's pretty darn hard to hit anything smaller than a 18" target at 400 yards with the Sport and that's probably being optimistic.
You say you want to buy a better AR down the road. I believe I would make that rifle your long range AR. If I wanted a 400 yard capable rifle now I'd be getting a bolt action. From what I understand you haven't bought an AR yet. There's plenty to like about them. But shooting 400 yards with what is really more M4 than AR (judging by barrel length) is pretty ambitious.
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ChattanoogaPhil
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The one piece mount? As mentioned earlier, maybe because it doesn't fit.
MichiganScott
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Apparently CJ has never been to a high power match like those held at Camp Perry and witnessed shooters clean the 600 yard stage with iron sights. The ten ring is 12" in diameter on that target. Admittedly those rifles are not entry level rifles and their ammunition is not made by Wolf, but to say that an AR type rifle is not accurate past 200 yards is wrong.
An 18" group at 400 yards is approximately 4.5 moa. Even mil-spec ammunition and rifles are required to be more accurate than that. Long range accuracy depends on the shooter more so than the platform used.
We also tend to forget that the real purpose of optical sights is to place the target and aiming point in the same focal plane, not to enlarge the target. You may need an 18 power scope if you want to shoot prairie dogs at 400 yards, but you do not need that much magnification to shoot targets or steel for fun at 400 yards. The OP will need plenty of practice and good ammunition, but to suggest that he can't do what he wants to do with his desired set-up is a disservice.
An 18" group at 400 yards is approximately 4.5 moa. Even mil-spec ammunition and rifles are required to be more accurate than that. Long range accuracy depends on the shooter more so than the platform used.
We also tend to forget that the real purpose of optical sights is to place the target and aiming point in the same focal plane, not to enlarge the target. You may need an 18 power scope if you want to shoot prairie dogs at 400 yards, but you do not need that much magnification to shoot targets or steel for fun at 400 yards. The OP will need plenty of practice and good ammunition, but to suggest that he can't do what he wants to do with his desired set-up is a disservice.
ChattanoogaPhil
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As with everything else, it depends on how he rifle will be used. I this case, the OP said his rifle will be used for range purposes.
As an example... At the Club we have 500 meter matches. Some guys use irons on ARs. Now they're pretty good irons well beyond what comes with the Sport. The 500 meter targets have a 5in X ring though a 36in 5 ring that are used on 6ft wide target holders in the pits (see below). Holding center on a range target doesn't necessarily require much magnification.
As a practical matter, I agree that the AR15 is well suited as a 0-200yd point and click battle rifle. That's why 1x red dots and 50yd zeros are common.
As an example... At the Club we have 500 meter matches. Some guys use irons on ARs. Now they're pretty good irons well beyond what comes with the Sport. The 500 meter targets have a 5in X ring though a 36in 5 ring that are used on 6ft wide target holders in the pits (see below). Holding center on a range target doesn't necessarily require much magnification.
As a practical matter, I agree that the AR15 is well suited as a 0-200yd point and click battle rifle. That's why 1x red dots and 50yd zeros are common.
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OP
Bushwack44
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You're forgiven. I appreciate constructive criticism.
I have a bolt action (Rem 700 at 270 with a Nikon Buckmasters scope) and can shoot quite well with it at distance. Maybe not 5" groups at 400 yards but I'm getting there. I did buy an M&P AR15 and would like to see how well I can shoot it with it. As I may have said, I tend to buy things that exceed my capabilities which helps me determine what skills I have. As I have yet to take the AR to the range, maybe the platform isn't for me and I should stay bolt action. I wont know until I have the AR properly dressed and out at the range.
I have a bolt action (Rem 700 at 270 with a Nikon Buckmasters scope) and can shoot quite well with it at distance. Maybe not 5" groups at 400 yards but I'm getting there. I did buy an M&P AR15 and would like to see how well I can shoot it with it. As I may have said, I tend to buy things that exceed my capabilities which helps me determine what skills I have. As I have yet to take the AR to the range, maybe the platform isn't for me and I should stay bolt action. I wont know until I have the AR properly dressed and out at the range.
Did you even read my post? I plainly said it was possible to shoot long distances with low power scopes. If you knew anything about me you would know that this guy here:
who happened to be a sniper in WWII, taught me a lesson I never forgot. He taught me and my brothers that if you could see it you can shoot it - with irons. Obviously there's a limitation on that but 600 yards ain't it. I saw him drop crows at about that distance and he never owned a scope. BTW he was a pretty good fisherman too.
I said the very same thing you did, that you might be able to shoot great at long distances with an AR but probably not with a Sport. So why do you feel the need to make out like I'm the village idiot???
I offered friendly advice. The OP understood that quite well. It seems you're the only one that didn't. Have a nice day.
One more thing just for fun. These blue spots were painted on a flat rock about an inch thick and the rock was propped up on my club gun range at 400 yards. Notice there's a dab of blue paint just where there is a space missing in the upper right of the rock that was part of another painted target about the size of the one beside it. I shot the rest of the paint out from 400 yards using about 10 rounds. A sizable chunk came off with it once I shot a significant portion of the target away. I left the other targets for someone else to shoot. I had made my point. I have shot 400 yards more than a few times. The group size here is about standard for my LRPV but the thing is I had to pick off small pieces of paint once I had knocked most of the target out. I'm talking hitting spots that were no bigger than an inch round. So please don't treat me like I don't know anything. I certainly don't know everything. Far from it. But I can do this.
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MichiganScott
Member
CJ, this sort of back and forth seldom ends well, so I will exit the discussion.
If the gentleman in the photo is still with us, please thank him for his service.
If the gentleman in the photo is still with us, please thank him for his service.
Let me see if I read this correctly.
You want your scope to be on QD mounts,
AND
you want to use two separate rings instead of a one-piece?
Are you purposefully trying to have a setup that won't re-zero optimally after dismount/remount?
And what's the concern with wanting QD and backup sights for a "range use only" gun?
OP
Bushwack44
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OK.. a few days have passed and below is what I ended up with (P-223 with P series mounts).
My first AR. Off to the range this weekend! I feel like an 18 year old about to meet up with a hot college senior for my first memorable experience.
My first AR. Off to the range this weekend! I feel like an 18 year old about to meet up with a hot college senior for my first memorable experience.
blues7
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MTM Case-Gard...useful equipment at a reasonable price.
(I have the Portable Rifle/Shotgun Maintenance Center).
(I have the Portable Rifle/Shotgun Maintenance Center).
craigthomasreed
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OK.. a few days have passed and below is what I ended up with (P-223 with P series mounts).
My first AR. Off to the range this weekend! I feel like an 18 year old about to meet up with a hot college senior for my first memorable experience.
What stand is that? Looks pretty sweet
blues7
Member
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/MTM-SNCR-30-Site-in-Clean-Rest-Red/dp/B000PW5AT4"]Amazon.com : MTM Site-in-Clean Rest(Red) : Hunting Cleaning And Maintenance Products : Sports & Outdoors@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41g-OvUVAzL.@@AMEPARAM@@41g-OvUVAzL[/ame]
I have this one...
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/MTM-Portable-Shotgun-Maintenance-Center/dp/B000BUAPOU"]Amazon.com : MTM Portable Rifle/Shotgun Maintenance Center : Hunting Cleaning And Maintenance Products : Sports & Outdoors@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41erZUpEpdL.@@AMEPARAM@@41erZUpEpdL[/ame]
There's a $5 off coupon on amazon which you can clip and gets applied at checkout.
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OP
Bushwack44
Member
Its called Site-In Clean. Bought it from Amazon a couple years ago for $24. Now close to $40 - [ame="http://www.amazon.com/MTM-SNCR-30-Site-in-Clean-Rest-Red/dp/B000PW5AT4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1460764767&sr=8-1&keywords=site+in+clean"]Amazon.com : MTM Site-in-Clean Rest(Red) : Hunting Cleaning And Maintenance Products : Sports & Outdoors@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41g-OvUVAzL.@@AMEPARAM@@41g-OvUVAzL[/ame]
Works great for rifle maintenance (whether a 10/22 or Rem 700).
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