Not Happy!

[Ofc.JL]

Thanx anyhow, turbo38gr, I plan to keep it and upgrade myself. And yes, I will admit, I did look to see if it had an "H" trigger in it before I took delivery. I could swear I saw a the "H" letter. Several days later, when I finally got a chance to strip it and clean it, I noticed that the slide stop was of the original style and not the newer "H" style. Upon closer investigation, I suddenly realized that the trigger was stamped with an "S", which means "standard configuration". I was just floored by my missing the clue AND the fact that S&W had put in a trigger group that they abandoned 3 years ago. While I could have returned the pistol had I caught my mistake, there is no reason, from what I have been trained, to expect anything in a new build gun other then the "H" configuration lockwork. 2 different Customer Service techs that were familiar w/ M&P's don't understand it either. A person would think that 3 years and hundreds of thousands of pistols later, any older lockwork parts would be used up, or deleted from the supply system. Why, then, did my pistol that was manufactured in Nov of 2015 come with old style lockwork parts? Somebody, somewhere at S&W found a batch of older lockwork parts and probably said to use them, no one will know the difference. Well, I do know and I got screwed. But trust me, Bros, I will get it corrected, either by me, or S&W.
Before anyone tells me again that it's no big deal and the pistol will shoot, I know. I have owned M&P's from there introduction, several years ago. But this pistol is not what I ordered and IT IS NOT CORRECT, PERIOD. I will fix it, that part is just taking some time due to communication problems.
Thanx All.
BtW, the Moral of this story, and tell all you know who are interested in M&P's(The Shield does not suffer from this) to do their due diligence and look for the "H" on the trigger bow. If an M&P doesn't have it, then that pistol will need APEX parts(+$$$) to make the trigger decent(Maybe). An "H" M&P does not. IMHO, of course. A person can do what they want with their property.

 

[ladder13]

........

I'd be upset if I bought a new truck and found an engine from the previous model........

I seem to remember from my misspent youth that Cadillac was using "Chevy" engines in their Sevilles back in the mid 70's. That caused quite an uproar.

 

[turbo38gn]

yaaaa.. I just bought a new truck, 2016 Dodge Eco\diesel.... thought it was a Cummins... didn't realize for 3 days before my son informed me it's a Fiat !!!! Oh well... I love da poooo out of it.. runs amazing and just love all the toys.. who'd of thought a truck with air suspension.. beats the heck out of my 02 Dodge dually cummins.. cept it ain't gonna pull a train.. just a house maybe..

 

[TacticalReload]

Thanx anyhow, turbo38gr, I plan to keep it and upgrade myself. And yes, I will admit, I did look to see if it had an "H" trigger in it before I took delivery. I could swear I saw a the "H" letter. Several days later, when I finally got a chance to strip it and clean it, I noticed that the slide stop was of the original style and not the newer "H" style. Upon closer investigation, I suddenly realized that the trigger was stamped with an "S", which means "standard configuration". I was just floored by my missing the clue AND the fact that S&W had put in a trigger group that they abandoned 3 years ago. While I could have returned the pistol had I caught my mistake, there is no reason, from what I have been trained, to expect anything in a new build gun other then the "H" configuration lockwork. 2 different Customer Service techs that were familiar w/ M&P's don't understand it either. A person would think that 3 years and hundreds of thousands of pistols later, any older lockwork parts would be used up, or deleted from the supply system. Why, then, did my pistol that was manufactured in Nov of 2015 come with old style lockwork parts? Somebody, somewhere at S&W found a batch of older lockwork parts and probably said to use them, no one will know the difference. Well, I do know and I got screwed. But trust me, Bros, I will get it corrected, either by me, or S&W.
Before anyone tells me again that it's no big deal and the pistol will shoot, I know. I have owned M&P's from there introduction, several years ago. But this pistol is not what I ordered and IT IS NOT CORRECT, PERIOD. I will fix it, that part is just taking some time due to communication problems.
Thanx All.
BtW, the Moral of this story, and tell all you know who are interested in M&P's(The Shield does not suffer from this) to do their due diligence and look for the "H" on the trigger bow. If an M&P doesn't have it, then that pistol will need APEX parts(+$$$) to make the trigger decent(Maybe). An "H" M&P does not. IMHO, of course. A person can do what they want with their property.

Well, before you worry too much about it, consider that after you get it corrected or correct it yourself, it might still end up shooting 10" groups at 25 yards.

 

[Ofc.JL]

That I am aware of. I hope it shoots good, 'cause if it does not, it's gone. And then no more M&P 9fs's for me. And that would be too bad because I really do like M&P's. And all of this screwed up "Fraken P" nonsense would be for naught. This has been a real Charlie Foxtrot.
Thanks, Guys.

 

[rsrocket1]

My original question remains unanswered; how do you know the barrel is an old design?

I have the old 9mm barrel as my conversion for my M&P 40 and it shoots great. I hate to admit it but I am way more consistently accurate with the 9mm setup than I am with the 40. With the 40, some days are better than others, but with the 9, it's like shooting rimfire or using a staple gun on the target.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Having read this entire thread, this is a very basic issue. My humble opinion is that when it comes right down to it, the entire ugly incident could have been avoided if the OP had properly inspected the pistol before taking delivery. The OP has admitted his failing in this regard, and is still mad at S&W. Hence, the hullaballoo . . . .

 

[moxie]

And, I too am baffled about how S&W managed to squirrel away some 3 year old parts and then bring them out and put them into the production line. Barrel AND "lockwork", all in the same gun. Baffling.

 

[TacticalReload]

Having read this entire thread, this is a very basic issue. My humble opinion is that when it comes right down to it, the entire ugly incident could have been avoided if the OP had properly inspected the pistol before taking delivery. The OP has admitted his failing in this regard, and is still mad at S&W. Hence, the hullaballoo . . . .

While this is true, he had no reason to expect a pistol made when this one was made would have out-dated parts. For example, you go to a car dealer and purchase a 2016 Corvette. Then when you get it home, you pop the hood and it has an engine in it from 2009. By your logic, this whole thing could have been avoided if you made sure your 2016 car came with a 2016 engine. I could also open every box of cereal I buy to make sure they didn't put Rice Krispies in my Cheerios box, but there comes a point where you weigh the effort you put into these actions against the odds that something will occur. I will go out on a limb here and guess that if these changes had JUST RECENTLY been put into place by S&W, that the OP would have been much more thorough with his examination.

 

[HOUSTON RICK]

I would put my basic, solid "old style M&P" up against the newer ones. Some of us here are thinking they did you a favor.

 

[Muss Muggins]

While this is true, he had no reason to expect a pistol made when this one was made would have out-dated parts. For example, you go to a car dealer and purchase a 2016 Corvette. Then when you get it home, you pop the hood and it has an engine in it from 2009. By your logic, this whole thing could have been avoided if you made sure your 2016 car came with a 2016 engine. I could also open every box of cereal I buy to make sure they didn't put Rice Krispies in my Cheerios box, but there comes a point where you weigh the effort you put into these actions against the odds that something will occur. I will go out on a limb here and guess that if these changes had JUST RECENTLY been put into place by S&W, that the OP would have been much more thorough with his examination.

I believe the OP has already mentioned that he is an M&P expert, and was specifically looking for the H mark on the trigger bar at the delivery point, not when he got it home. This isn't you and me kicking tires in the parking lot. The OP is a trained, schooled, and experienced expert, and he knew the timeline of changes and what he was looking for in the pistol he expected. He hasn't mentioned what he would do if he didn't see it the H mark. He thought he did see it. By his umbrage at getting the wrong pistol, I can only assume that he wouldn't have taken possession.

All that being said, I call it "his bad . . ."

More clearly: "I screwed up. You make it right . . . "

 

[TacticalReload]

I believe the OP has already mentioned that he is an M&P expert, and was specifically looking for the H mark on the trigger bar at the delivery point, not when he got it home. This isn't you and me kicking tires in the parking lot. The OP is a trained, schooled, and experienced expert, and he knew the timeline of changes and what he was looking for in the pistol he expected. He hasn't mentioned what he would do if he didn't see it the H mark. He thought he did see it. By his umbrage at getting the wrong pistol, I can only assume that he wouldn't have taken possession.

All that being said, I call it "his bad . . ."

More clearly: "I screwed up. You make it right . . . "

I have no idea why I'm defending him because I don't know him from Adam. However, it doesn't matter if he's trained, schooled, experienced, or an expert. There was no reason in hell that he should assume anything but that this newly made pistol included parts that were transitioned to literally years before it was made. I'm surprised he even looked for the H. But the fact that he did, and thought he saw it is basically irrelevant. (Have you even looked for the little H yourself? Perhaps it's my 40-something year old eyes, but it's damn hard to even see. Mistaking an S for an H is not difficult to do.) Old parts shouldn't be in new guns. He put in a tiny bit of effort to check on something that was highly, highly, highly unlikely to be true. Suppose he had NOT looked -- no reason to assume he would need to -- would you still say it's his fault? Suppose he wasn't "trained, schooled, etc., etc."... would you still say it's his fault? We are just talking about looking for a tiny "H".

Like I said, who cares if he looked or didn't look. Who cares if he thought he saw an H or and S or whatever. Who cares if he's an armorer or a total noobie who read about the trigger bars on an internet forum. The bottom line that is completely separate from any of that is S&W put long-since updated parts into a new production pistol. They didn't just randomly update parts for ****s and giggles. They did so for some reason, and that reason is likely that they saw justification in that they were an "improvement" in some way. There is no reason that the purchaser of a newly made pistol should get the non-improved parts years and years after they supposedly stopped putting them into guns.

It's the OP's fault for not noticing, but it's not his fault that they are there. So if he DID notice and refused to buy it and it just got sold to a noobie who didn't know better... that's somehow okay with you? He didn't "screw up"... what he did was failed to notice that S&W "screwed up" until after he took the gun home despite having no legit reasonable reason to assume it was likely. Now S&W should make it right for him or for whomever it was that ultimately ended up with the pistol.

 

[shawn mccarver]

Since you've had such horrible luck with M&Ps, I've gotta ask, why do you keep coming back?

That leads to the next question, how do you know it's the guns and not you that's shooting 18" at 25 yards?

He actually said 18 inches (18") at 25 FEET (25'), not 25 yards. That may not have been what he MEANT, but the single apostrophe is the abbreviation for FEET, NOT YARDS.

 

[ockgator]

A lot of folks here speak of "what if I bought a new truck with an old engine"..... Owners of 6 liter Ford Diesels look at your engine build dates vs. VIN year

 

[Rastoff]

He actually said 18 inches (18") at 25 FEET (25'), not 25 yards. That may not have been what he MEANT, but the single apostrophe is the abbreviation for FEET, NOT YARDS.

You may be right, but that doesn't change what I asked.

A lot of folks here speak of "what if I bought a new truck with an old engine"..... Owners of 6 liter Ford Diesels look at your engine build dates vs. VIN year

Not a reasonable comparison. The only actual improvement in this case is the reset which has nothing to do with accuracy. I would agree if there was a major performance difference, like there would be with different engines. That is not the case here.

Even so, he has a right to be a little miffed because of the wrong parts. I just don't think it's a huge deal. I also don't think S&W will replace them for free.

 

[Kanewpadle]

I love it when people come here and cry about their problems with S&W guns looking to get their egos massaged. Like it's really going to help.

 

[royal barnes]

Since you've had such horrible luck with M&Ps, I've gotta ask, why do you keep coming back?

That leads to the next question, how do you know it's the guns and not you that's shooting 18" at 25 yards?

He didn't say 25 yds. he said 21 feet.

 

[jdesro1911]

I can somewhat understand why the OP might be a bit disappointed in what he received, but I don't understand the downright indignation in some of the responses I've seen.

I don't think it is fair to compare the M&P "upgrades" to new model year vehicle changes. When an auto manufacturer introduces a new year car model, they shout from the rooftops of their increased horsepower or "bold new graphics" and whatnot. To the best of my knowledge, S&W only stated that they would be "phasing in" the upgrades, and if the OP's pistol is any indication, we are still in that phasing in stage.

Is it right for S&W to use up old parts like this instead of scrapping them all and only using the "upgraded" ones in current pistols? I don't know. I don't think S&W really sees a difference between "S" and "H" triggerbars or changes in the slidestops - I think to them parts is parts. They all function just fine, it is just that a particular combination of parts gives a little more distinct trigger reset and perhaps a slightly better feel - nothing more, nothing less. Again, S&W isn't like Glock with their distinct Generational changes. S&W slowly (very slowly, apparently) introduces different parts into the M&P line as they see a need.

Is it crutial to have an "H" bar and new slide stop? It's nice, but not a deal breaker for me. I have some new pistols that came with the "old" slidestop - I don't think it is such a big deal. The parts are easy enough to replace if down the road I want to. I certainly have better things to do with my time than to write a sternly worded letter to S&W because my pistol has one style of fully functional parts instead of supposedly "improved" ones, but that's just me.

 

[Ofc.JL]

Everybody is right on most points. Part of this debacle is my fault, as I should have checked better before taking delivery. I did not and when I found the mistake later, I figured I had a NOS pistol. When I looked at the build date is when I got concerned and perplexed. Now the thing that floors me is what is S&W doing putting in 3 year old, out of date parts in a new pistol. It just makes no sense to me.
And It isn't the end of the world, an M&P pistol is an M&P pistol, older or newer lockwork, non withstanding. I have always preferred S&W products and will continue to do so. I own several brands of pistols, as I buy what I like, I just prefer M&P's. And I prefer the newer revision version, too. That's what I wanted and that's what I ordered. What I got was not correct, period. And Realistically, it never should have happened.
As far as how to fix, I have finally been able to reach one of the LE reps w/ S&W(Everybody has been slammed busy), and we are working out getting me the correct lockwork parts so I may upgrade the pistol myself. As far as the barrel upgrade, this pistol does have it, as far as we can determine, so no problem there. Also, as an aside, the Rep said he has heard of it happening before as in old lockwork parts in a new gun. He said that the assembly unit probably came across an older batch of parts and used them, rather then throwing them away. Understandable, but frustrating and problem causing, IMHO. I consider it bad business, but that is a Corporate decision that I have nothing to do with.

And as far as just getting the newer "H" revision parts from whoever...Good luck with that. Last I checked(and I have checked a lot!), every retailer that stocked S&W parts are out of the newer revision "H" series parts, showing back ordered, and have been that way for a long time. S&W has severely restricted their availability of parts to the public for some time now. Truth be known, a lot of the firearm manufacturers are starting to limit what parts are available, and what they will send out. Just the way it's going to be in the US for now on, due to litigation and the Liberal War on Constitutional rights.
Everybody Stay Safe, and VOTE! Worst thing anyone could do is withhold their vote because they don't like the chosen Candidate. Don't throw your vote away, that helps the other side. Hold your nose and vote!

 

[rsrocket1]

You know some "manager" who is a product of the Peter principle is listening to some bean counter who uses Chinese cost cutting measures and tells him/her "if we used these parts that we found squirreled away instead of the latest parts, we could recoup 100% of the cost of making the parts rather than scraping them and losing several thousand dollars and 99% of the people who use them would not even care much less notice".

I hate to say it but this type of bean counting mentality gives "quality" companies a bad reputation and puts them in the league as Dealextreme and the ebay "free shipping from China" sellers. Yes you get something cheap, but you are the QC department, not the company.