This could be an important distinction, as I just had a loose TSW rail repaired by S&W this last year. I called in, and had no issue getting a shipping slip sent out and the rail tightened. I believe calling in does get better results, but it's disheartening to hear that they are no longer doing (at least some) non-repair work on 3rd Gens any more.
Not news, but no more work on Gen 3 guns from factory
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This could be an important distinction, as I just had a loose TSW rail repaired by S&W this last year. I called in, and had no issue getting a shipping slip sent out and the rail tightened. I believe calling in does get better results, but it's disheartening to hear that they are no longer doing (at least some) non-repair work on 3rd Gens any more.
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Wow, too bad those folks couldn't be contracted to train a handful of employees in "real" gunsmithing.
We need $$$$'s, lots.
I just sold a few acres. I'll go $5K. That covers what I had in it 16 years ago and donates the overage to "The Cause". Of course, Mike and I will need someone/everyone to step up for the balance.
Class III
P.S. I nominate Lee for CEO!!!
I'll up my share to $1,000 
6,000 so far
6,000 so far
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4506517
Member
Well..........if not S & W I do believe Colt might be available.
Fastbolt
Member
Yours is a very common reaction and opinion.
It just might be that a lot of people have an unrealistic, but understandable, expectation of the service life of many firearms, though. We can see many examples of such firearms that have been passed down through generations, right?
However, how much actual "usage" have they actually received?
I have a copy of a FBI report of the end of the 80's when they did some testing of many of the current crop of service pistols of that period. Most had aluminum frames. It was noted that a couple of the alloy pistols of the time, made by S&W and Sig Sauer, could develop frame cracks by 10K rounds fired. It was also noted that the expected spec for "service life" of some military pistols (here and elsewhere) was only 5K rounds. In other words, an aluminum alloy frame that lasted for 10K rounds had just about doubled the required service life.
By contrast, the agency noted that the HRT's service pistol of the time, the Browning HP, had demonstrated an average service life at that point of well into the 80K range, if I recall (without having to go dig out the article in that manual from '90). Well, that's steel for you.
In the 90's cops (and private owners) apparently started shooting more, and it wasn't long before they started requiring "more" from their pistols. The gun companies that saw a lot of major LE business started making aluminum-framed (and plastic) guns that would meet stated requirements for longer service lives.
Now, it's not uncommon for LE duty weapons to normally get replaced on some schedule of approx 5-10 years. Various reasons. Some agencies, especially those who maintain pretty large inventories, sometimes keep guns in-service as long as they can be maintained and kept within proper conditions and meet factory spec, which might be for a long time ... depending on how much they're actually fired, of course.
That can get expensive at some point, with "rebuilds" often costing enough that it may be considered financially unwise to keep pouring money into a "used" gun that might better be spent on a new gun. (Sounds like a used car, huh?
)Slides and barrels are expensive (if not covered under a warranty replacement program). Ditto drawbars and hammer assemblies for 3rd gen guns. If you originally paid $500-$700 for a gun, and then you need to spend another $200-$300 on parts and assemblies as guns age and are subjected to normal wear & tear? How about paying the armorer for the bench time (and especially if it's paid as overtime, because the armor position is part time and something done in addition to a regular assignment)? A new gun starts to look very attractive, budget-wise, over the long term.
At some point, some number of heavily used (or simply heavily abused) guns may reach a point where the frame can't be kept within factory spec, and obviously then the whole gun has to be taken out of service and replaced.
I once spoke to a FBI agent who said they'd really liked their SIG 9mm, but the day had come when the agency armorers had said the gun had reached the point when they could no longer keep the gun operable and within factory spec, so it had been pulled and replaced with the currently issued Glock.
I remember being told by a S&W factory repair tech that when they'd built the early 3rd gen guns (that our agency was still using), they'd never expected an average agency would ever end up firing more than 5K rounds through them over the course of a career.
FWIW, according to some manufacturer info of the time, the "average" private owner of a handgun probably wouldn't fire 500 rounds through a gun they owned during their whole life, and it wasn't exactly uncommon for some owners to still have part of their first, original box of ammunition left after they'd owned guns for several years.
Somewhere I have a gun magazine I kept from back about '79, in which a lightweight Colt Commander had been fired for an extensive torture test ... of 5000 rounds. I owned one and often wondered about how long the aluminum frame would last, since I was an avid handloader and shooter. I foolishly ended up trading it for an all-steel "Combat" Commander.
Nowadays many owners who enjoy frequent shooting as a pastime would probably think of shooting 5K rounds as just getting a gun broken in and warmed up.
Lots of people are apparently expecting more of their guns, and are shooting a lot more rounds through them. IDPA (and Glock's GSSF) have probably generated more interest among many of the "average" handgun owners to get out and shoot more.
Training classes and schools are growing at an amazing rate. The last couple of small storefront guns stores (not open all the time, since the owners have other jobs) have advertised training classes for customers. The introduction of classroom & range training for CCW licensees is seemingly another growing industry, too.
Cops have been shooting more, overall, too. I've read, heard and learned of increased shooting regiments and training occurring. I've been told by some different gun companies (as an armorer) that there's been a slowly growing trend of agencies requiring more training, and subsequently placing more demands (wear and tear) on the guns they're buying and using.
Over the course of several years, attending various armorer classes, I started hearing of increasingly more frequent factory recommendations for the inspection and replacement of "wearable parts". "Wearable parts" are defined (by at least one company) as parts which are expected to wear during normal us, and their replacement isn't a warranty consideration.
Now, go without replacing some wearable parts for too long, and then have the gun become battered and damaged? Don't be surprised to be told it's not a "warranty problem".
On a related note, recommendations for some spring replacement intervals were becoming more specific over time, too.
I've listened to different gun companies who have been telling armorers that some of their continually revised and constantly improved guns were offering longer, practical service lives. Well, that's progress, right?
I'll guess we'll see how well the modern aluminum-framed guns are going to be lasting for "generational use", as well as the plastic-framed guns. I certainly have a lot of them in my safe which my son is going to inherit, and probably pass along to another generation. He likes the older revolvers, shotguns and lever rifles, though.
BTW, even in the revolver days of LE, I listened to various armorers discuss how they sometimes had to work to maintain a variety of S&W and Colt revolvers, especially if fired with more Magnum than standard pressure loads. Remember the introduction of the L-frame and GP-100? The performance/endurance package on the 629?
Don't forget we have some improved materials, metallurgy and heat treating that weren't available in previous guns. Better manufacturing, too.
So, we may have some cherished perceptions and expectations of how long the average "gun" may last over generations, but that doesn't mean those expectations are going to be reasonable. Did our fathers, grandfathers or great grandfathers shoot 10K or 20K rounds through their deer rifles? How about that war trophy 1911? How many rounds do you suppose some GI in WWI/II, the Korean or Viet Nam wars was able to get their hands on to use, anyway?
Sorry for the rambling. I totally understand and appreciate your meaning, but all equipment has a practical and useful service life, and that's under optimal conditions where it's not subjected to unreasonable abuse or neglect ... and it's maintained.
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Nakanokalronin
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It all depends on who you talk to. I called about getting a dimple grip to replace the non-dimple one on my used 5904. One CS rep told me they don't sell it and I'd have to send the gun in on my dime. I said no thanks and hung up. I called 3 hours later and got another CS rep that looked up the year it was made, asked for my address and said he'd send one out right away free of charge which I received 3 days later.
Silversmok3
Member
@ Fastbolt.
On the flip side of the coin; the kind of person who shoots 1000 rounds every weekend is maybe 1% of a products customer base. Even us members here are firearm 1%ers.
The typical person even in these "high volume ammo" times may shoot 200 rounds for a group session with the whole family. From what I've seen working the local range desk, most folks run 50 rounds through a singular weapon tops.
I'll remember a question which came up during a pistol class locally; there was a husband/wife pair of students , first time owners of an HK P30. Her question :
" How long can the gun be stored without being used or fired?"
They spent $900 on a handgun capable of thousands of rounds of use....and they're basically stuffing it in a drawer ,never to be used again.All that capability is wasted on them-and frankly it would be on me too.
To shoot 10,000 rounds through a 9mm pistol in my neck of the woods is about $3000. Barring winning the lotto there's no way I can afford that pace of shooting.I've yet to meet someone on the line who can.
For all the "tactical" marketing and puffery, if handguns turned to dust after 5K most consumers wouldn't notice.The typical pistol sits in a dark drawer , unless it's a .380 or smaller which gets toted in the pocket if the owner thinks they're going to "the bad part of town."
So companies don't have much economic incentive to keep parts for older guns.
On the flip side of the coin; the kind of person who shoots 1000 rounds every weekend is maybe 1% of a products customer base. Even us members here are firearm 1%ers.
The typical person even in these "high volume ammo" times may shoot 200 rounds for a group session with the whole family. From what I've seen working the local range desk, most folks run 50 rounds through a singular weapon tops.
I'll remember a question which came up during a pistol class locally; there was a husband/wife pair of students , first time owners of an HK P30. Her question :
" How long can the gun be stored without being used or fired?"
They spent $900 on a handgun capable of thousands of rounds of use....and they're basically stuffing it in a drawer ,never to be used again.All that capability is wasted on them-and frankly it would be on me too.
To shoot 10,000 rounds through a 9mm pistol in my neck of the woods is about $3000. Barring winning the lotto there's no way I can afford that pace of shooting.I've yet to meet someone on the line who can.
For all the "tactical" marketing and puffery, if handguns turned to dust after 5K most consumers wouldn't notice.The typical pistol sits in a dark drawer , unless it's a .380 or smaller which gets toted in the pocket if the owner thinks they're going to "the bad part of town."
So companies don't have much economic incentive to keep parts for older guns.
Now, that is funny.
You had me right up to that last line.
Spare parts availability should not be about "economic incentives." Spare parts availability should be about a company's ethics & reputation... a commitment to your customers, commitment to your warranties and commitment to your very long-lasting products.
Nakanokalronin
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They have a separate warehouse in KY where Gen 3 parts are stored according to the nice CS rep that helped me with my grips. It would be nice if they at least kept springs in stock, especially the trigger play springs.
kbm6893
Member
The NYPD started issuing the 5946 over 22 years ago. They sure ain't being replaced every 10 years.
The 3rd gens went away not that long ago. S&W should be actively supporting them for longer. I know they are concentrating on the M&P line, but should M&P owners today be screwed 15 years from now?
The 3rd gens went away not that long ago. S&W should be actively supporting them for longer. I know they are concentrating on the M&P line, but should M&P owners today be screwed 15 years from now?
Fastbolt
Member
Yeah, I noticed the return shipping address of the KY warehouse and asked about it once. I was told they'd been expanding their use of that facility for both gun parts and other commercial uses. First time I'd seen a KY return address on a part shipment. Guess we'll see more.
Fastbolt
Member
It's not easy to try and pin this down, but it sometimes sounds like the company would really like to get out of the business of making 3rd gen's for their existing 3rd gen agency customers, and shift them over to the M&P's. That would let them continue to reduce support for the hard used (and abused) LE guns, and leave them to only think about the occasional warranty needs of the "occasional shooter" private owners. That would let them wind down having to maintain such a large parts inventory, letting them shift their attention over to the hot selling M&P and 1911 lines, as well as their rifle and revolver lines.
The NYPD guns are privately owned by their cops. Unless a gun reaches the point where it can't be kept within spec with simple repairs, or some cop decides to shift to another authorized model, the guns are probably going to be kept by their owners for the length of their careers. The agency doesn't have to worry about replacing inventories like many other agencies.
My agency ran early production 3rd gen's for going on 20 years before changing over to TSW's. Depending on the date received and being put into service (in phases), those were run for close to 7-9 years before being replaced by either a return to authorizing a list of optional, personally-purchased duty weapons, or the new M&P's (3 calibers).
Decisions to replace an inventory of duty weapons can vary, much like any other item of inventoried safety equipment. Money's always going to be an issue, but it's not the only issue, obviously. (We've certainly been running patrol vehicles longer.
)
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Fastbolt
Member
...
You had me right up to that last line.
I agree, in general.
I suspect a large part of the disgruntlement being felt may be that the company isn't maintaining a large retail/spare inventory, not that they aren't repairing the guns sent to them by original customers needing warranty support.
Also, with the huge used gun market, there may be some anxiety being felt by owners who aren't the "original owners", and who may wonder about being able to get the guns serviced and repaired, and at what cost.
Then, of course, there's going to be the folks who may want some customizing work done on older 3rd gen's, like by the PC, and they're starting to see a diminished level of support for that sort of "non-warranty" work. This is seemingly going to be the result of reduced availability of extra "non-warranty" parts & assemblies, as well as the folks experienced with working on the 3rd gen's retiring out.
If the bulk of the deamnd for the cusom services is coming from revolver, 1911 and M&P owners, it makes sense for the company to focus their attention to training new people on those lines, instead of something removed from both the commercial and LE/Military catalogs about 10 years ago.
That's not quite the same thing as no longer performing warranty repairs for original owners of 3rd gen's (much as we might think, or wish to see it otherwise).
There are some older S&W revolvers and 1st gen pistols which aren't supported by the factory for some parts and assemblies anymore, and those are still out in circulation (with most of them probably having been passed down in families or bought used, meaning not in the hands of the original owners).
Look what Ruger's been telling folks about some parts, repairs and services no longer being available for their Security-Six line, and a couple of their earlier centerfire pistols.
Time marches on, and some products fall out of common use, and then support diminishes (or entirely goes away).
Hey, I wish they were still producing each and every variation of parts & assembly ever used in their 1st, 2nd & 3rd gen lines, too, but that's not how it's going to play out in the real world.
Sigh ...
Fastbolt
Member
Yep. Some astute observations, I'd think.
Frankly, the ONLY reason I was able to run so many rounds through some different guns over the years was because I was working as an instructor and armorer for many years, and was able to use the agency's ammo.
Back when they only handed out ONE box of .357 Magnum duty ammo when they issued a revolver, and you had to buy the rest from that point on, it could be an expensive thing to use Magnum ammo for practice. They had as much remanufactured 158gr LSWC +P as you might care to shoot (and similar stuff for the .44/.45 shooters), but you were pretty much on your own for Magnum practice ammo.
I used to burn up a lot of my own money in practice ammo as a young cop, but even so, I remember only having fired approx 3,500 rounds through my second 686 before I was told to turn in it for a new 5903. I was one of the few guys I knew who bothered to burn up Magnum ammo at my own expense for simple practice and quals. It also meant I was burning through a lot of OT pay in order to support my interest in shooting and practice.
Now that the prices of ammunition have risen to almost exorbitant levels, it's understandable how the "average" owner probably isn't going to be spending so much time indulging themselves in shooting a handgun only bought with a thought for possible defense, but not to use as a "shooting hobby".
Silversmok3
Member
If we assume S&W is copying Glock's business model with the M&P line, we can expect that 15 years from now they'll still be making essentially the same gun.Further there arent as many components S&W needs to stock for service, because polymer.
It should be noted that excess inventory on a company's balance sheet is considerd a bad thing to have, because its an asset that loses value on the reporting statements. Every year 3rd Gen parts are costing S&W money in warehouse space ,and the parts themselves have to be written down for depreciation on S&Ws reports.
Just some perspective on why the company is in such a hurry to go all-M&P. The sooner LE agencies ditch their 3rd Gens means the sooner S&W can totally quit supporting the pistols and can sell/write off the parts inventory and be done with it.
kbm6893
Member
It's not my problem if the company loses money on parts for guns that THEY issued a Lifetime warranty for. They gladly took the customers money when he bought that 3rd gen model.
At the least, copy Ruger's business model. They no longer support the Six revolvers. If you need service on them, you send it in to them and they either give you a choice of a new production revolver, free of charge, or some guys have paid cost, so a new GP100 that normally sells for 600 will cost you 300.
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Silversmok3
Member
Agreed,but i'm not sure about this:
you send it in to them and they either give you a choice of a new production revolver, free of charge, or some guys have paid cost, so a new GP100 that normally sells for 600 will cost you 300.
Sure it fulfills the company's obligation, but for us this means being sent an M&P of some sort.
Wow.... sounds like a great deal to me... I mean really... when and where in this world can you buy a product, own it and wear it out for decades and then get it replaced with the newest style available... I mean really guys....
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