Not shooting accurately

Rastoff and others have given great advice. The only thing I could add is what the 'oldtimers' told me when I started shooting "Bullseye":

1) Put a black spot on your wall at home (a black paster is good) and dry fire at least 20 good shots a day at the spot.

2) Get an air pistol and practice with it at least one a week.

Of course every shot should be based on good stance, grip, sight alignment, sight picture, breath/trigger control and follow through.
 
Many years ago when I was a young man I joined a Bullseye Pistol League. I listened to every word the old timers said and asked a lot of questions. I was always there early and I also left late if they were still talking. It was great fun and I'm amazed to say the least.
 
BE Mike said:
Some of the ideas put forth seem conflicting, such as the ideas on trigger manipulation. I also disagree with the steps starting with "freeze". I believe that sight alignment and trigger manipulation need to be considered as two functions taking place together. ...

I don't see those ideas so much as conflicts with themselves as much as conflicts with the some of the many "received truths" of handgun training we've been exposed to over the years. The biggest thing I found appealing about that video was that it seemed to make to be much more focused on how the student might best learn rather than how to best teach the student what was on the list of training objectives.

There are a lot of experts out there and just about every expert seems to have his or her view of how things must be done and the best way to teach it, but darned few of them seem really focused on how the students might might most effectively learn what they are trying to teach.

Little things like how strongly you grip the gun when firing, doesn't seem to be consistently addressed across the board, nor does how to properly stroke the trigger and let it reset. Even how to manage a reload seems to vary from instructor to instructor, and whether to use the slide stop (or release) or some variation of a "sling shot" release is not uniformly presented. (There may be more consistency among NRA instructors on some of these points, but they're not the only ones out there teaching. Many instructors know how to present their topics, but far fewer of them are really teachers -- who are focused on the best way to teach their subject.

For me, that was the best part of the video -- its focus on the psychology of the learners. I think that was the reason for the video's recommendations to start non-shooters out with air pistols (particularly ones that look like the guns they'll eventually be shooting, and that makes great sense. If that's not easily done, then using .22s help. (And if you've got a .22 top end for the gun they'll later be shooting, so much the better!)

Managing the gun and the trigger remains relatively the same regardless of whether it's air-powered or powder-powered. What happens after the trigger is pulled is where differences really make themselves known -- but once the bullet or pellet is gone, that can be dealt with.

Sight alignment and trigger manipulation can be difficult -- and saying that you must do both at the same time is certainly true, but that TRUTH doesn't mean the two processes can't be mastered separately and then combined.

The Bullseye Pistol chart for Error Analysis and Correction was arguably created for folks who shoot with the strong hand only -- but most people who start into handguns seem to do that even when they use both hands. :) But, then, so do many, many experienced shooters! Using the Bullseye problem chart still makes sense for many two-handed shooters. But you don't hear that truth addressed much.

As you see in the Bullseye chart, squeezing the gun's grip tightly with the strong hand while also squeezing the trigger with that same hand can mis-align the gun. (It's hard to squeeze 3 of your finger and your thumb heavily, while lightly pressing a trigger.) Trying to hold the grip less tightly while pressing the trigger while also using that hand to position the gun can also cause a new handgun shooter problems.

One of the technical resources I hold in high regard is retired Sgt. Major Kyle Lamb (the columnist for Guns & Ammo ) who spent 15 (of his 21 Army) years in Delta Force. He was one of the Delta Force Operators on the ground in Mogadishu, the story told in the book and movie Black Hawk Down, and he also fought in Desert Storm, saw duty in Bosnia, and Iraq.

Lamb recommends gun positioning (for target acquisition) be done mostly with the weak hand and trigger management be done with the strong hand. For positioning the gun he says that maybe as much as 70% of the work should be done with the strong hand, and only 30% be done with the weak hand -- but he also knows that a different ratio might work better for some folks. That leaves most of the strong hand free to be focused on properly releasing/pressing/pulling the trigger.

I had never heard that approach recommended until relatively, yet I think it makes great sense! When I've taken classes -- only a few, to be sure -- how to hold the gun with the strong hand was addressed, but not how to use that hand to do anything but stay out of the way!
 
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It was your first time. Takes a few hundred rounds to get comfortable. It's a defensive pistol not a match grade target pistol. Here's some advice I heard years ago but can't remember where, "Aim small, miss small". Keep it on a pie plate and you will be a good Patriot.
 
I echo everyone suggesting dryfire practice, but take it a step further. A year or so ago I was still fairly new to shooting and decided I wanted a way to measure my progress. I chose to buy an iTargetPro. You buy a laser cartridge which goes straight into the chamber, and an optional target sled. The target sled holds an 8.5x11 paper target and your cell phone. The cartridge has a "primer" which sets the laser off when hit by the striker. The free app records where the laser hits. It's not a perfect system but it has helped me a lot. You can practice precision slow fire or quick draw time. $98 isn't cheap for a laser, but I also figured it doesn't take long to shoot that much in ammo.

iTarget Laser Training System | iTarget
 
Walt, if you look at the video again, you'll see that early on, one method of trigger manipulation is suggested and later on a different form is presented. All private shooting schools say that they have THE answer. Much of it involves technique. There are many techniques that lead to success. That doesn't mean that any one of them are wrong. I'm not a big fan of the "Wheel of Misfortune". It focuses on errors. I am more of a fan of positive training which focuses on what one does correctly and builds upon that.
 
Check out Gunfighter University. $15 a month and gives you access to the private Facebook group.

On the Gunfighter website you will be able to watch multiple videos on varying shooting topics broken down and analyzed by John "Shrek" McPhee who was a SGM in Delta Force.

Lots of good stuff, and the private group allows you to interact with John and his many students.

Sent from my LG-SP200 using Tapatalk
 
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BE Mike said:
I'm not a big fan of the "Wheel of Misfortune". It focuses on errors. I am more of a fan of positive training which focuses on what one does correctly and builds upon that.

I'm also a fan of positive training, but seeing something wrong and showing the shooter how to avoid the problem is not a NEGATIVE training experience. In many cases, it's just an opportunity to emphasize the values of a proper technique. And it will only be punishment if the instructor uses it as an opportunity to be abuse the trainee or to to prove to the "audience" (i.e., the students) just how good he is and how much he knows. (I've seen that more than than a few times, over the years.)

I think the video I mentioned does a good job of helping shooters have a very positive training experience -- more so than some classes I've participated in or observed. (And then there's the training I got in the military...)

Working ONLY on positive behaviors is essential with animals (like a new dog or a puppy) where you can't really discuss or explain what's intended, or get the "trainee" to tell you what they think they're doing. Positive experiences are important, and proper feedback, even when its about negative results can be positively done with humans and can be positively received. And that can be far more direct and more quickly done than only reinforcing positive behaviors. That's not to say that you shouldn't be reinforcing positive behaviors -- you should.
 
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I'm also a fan of positive training, but seeing something wrong and showing the shooter how to avoid the problem is not a NEGATIVE training experience. In many cases, it's just an opportunity to emphasize the values of a proper technique. And it will only be punishment if the instructor uses it as an opportunity to be abuse the trainee or to to prove to the "audience" (i.e., the students) just how good he is and how much he knows. (I've seen that more than than a few times, over the years.)

I think the video I mentioned does a good job of helping shooters have a very positive training experience -- more so than some classes I've participated in or observed. (And then there's the training I got in the military...)

Working ONLY on positive behaviors is essential with animals (like a new dog or a puppy) where you can't really discuss or explain what's intended, or get the "trainee" to tell you what they think they're doing. Positive experiences are important, and proper feedback, even when its about negative results can be positively done with humans and can be positively received. And that can be far more direct and more quickly done than only reinforcing positive behaviors. That's not to say that you shouldn't be reinforcing positive behaviors -- you should.
Actually having negative training techniques can have a detrimental affect upon a person's progress. It plants a negative idea in the student's mind. Statements like, "Don't jerk the trigger!" many times comes back from the student's subconscious as "Jerk the trigger!" I've found that saying things as "Roll the trigger!" when double action shooting cannot be misinterpreted by the subconscious. That why I'm not a big fan of the "Wheel of Misfortune". It is negative training. Champions have or have learned to be positive or they never would reach that high level. As usual, we will not agree on certain techniques.
 
NOBODY is suggesting that you shouldn't be positive. You seem to be confusing what you consider NEGATIVE LANGUAGE with negative feedback/reinforcement/punishment. They're not the same thing.

What we're really talking about is something called "instrumental learning" and that's broadly referred to as behaviorism. It has four components:

1) Positive reinforcement occurs when you reward the proper behavior. If you don't see the proper behavior you can't reward it. How you get to the desired positive behavior can be time-consuming. Saying "roll the trigger" is not positive reinforcement, neither is saying "don't jerk the trigger." But when the desired results are achieved you can praise the results or offer other forms of reward.

2) Negative reinforcement comes when you take away something that the trainee considers unpleasant. Hard to do that effectively in most classroom environments, as it means you must be ready to start out using negative environmental tools in the training process.

3) Positive punishment comes from the delivery of something unpleasant, like verbal abuse or a spanking. With pets and people this will sometimes STOP the undesired behavior, but if an alternative behavior isn't taught (and positively reinforced) the undesired behavior can continue away form the training process.
  • The problem with positive punishment is that, away from a controlled environment, like a training class, it's hard to tell if it's really successful, because it may simply be that the trainee has figured out how to NOT GET CAUGHT doing the undesired behavior. It doesn't mean he or she has really bought into the training concepts being presented.
4) Negative punishment is the process of taking away something that's desired. This used to be popular with small children; with teenagers, it might be the suspension of computer or phone privileges with teenagers.
  • But, like positive punishment, you simply can't know whether the desired training result has been accomplished outside of the training environment. As soon as the punishment is removed, the negative result may reappear..
Those are the four different types of INSTRUMENTAL LEARNING defined by behaviorists, and using the WHEEL OF ERRORS doesn't really suggest that you must use types 2, 3, or 4. You want to use type 1, and I agree. How you respond to your analysis of a trainee's performance is totally up to you.

If someone is doing something dangerous in a training class, it's hard to use positive reinforcement -- as you must immediately stop that behavior. But how you deal with the behavior after it is stopped can be much more positive. That's what good trainers do.

The Wheel of Errors is simply an analytical tool. You don't have to show it to your students, and if you say "roll the trigger" instead of "don't jerk the trigger." you may have found a better way to provide the feedback that will improve your student's performance.

  • But if you say, "it looks like you're pulling the trigger too forcefully, and that forceful pull can cause you to unintentionally jerk the barrel down as your finger moves to the rear." and then suggest "try rolling the trigger instead, and you'll have a smoother pull that may not drag the barrel down," those two sentences, a more expanded explanation, may be more effective.
It's how YOU do it that matters, not just the terms used.

If you have a better way to shape behavior have at it -- and positive reinforcement IS the most effective technique to use in your classes. But you have to find something positive to reinforce before you can reinforce it, and that can take time.

There is more than one way to be positive and to make the training experience a positive one -- and doing things directly, in a very positive way can save time and money, and speed up the training process.
.
 
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Being recoil sensitive with shotgun is usally due to combination of wrong alignment and loose hold. Shoot an Ithaca 37 featherweight with magnum pheasant load wrong you will feel it and get a bruise..
Shoot it correctly and no problem.
Recoil sensitive for those with no physical problems such as arthritis is also from incorrect holding and alignment.
Hold any handgun with proper alignment so the axis is inlign with wrist and elbow. That means backstrap in meat of hand not web if hand.
Also hold very securely so your skeletal structure restrains shock
People who hold in the web complain that the magnum revolver hurts therir wrist. No joke because it will flip your hand upward and bend your wrist in a manner that hurts.
Grip. I grip the hangun in my trigger hand keeping the trigger finger loose and out of trigger guard. Use two of three fingers to very securely hold the handgun pressing directly back toward the meat of the hand.
Handgun is aligned and skeletal structure supports and controls the handgun.
Trigger finger depending on gun is placed with either more or less trigger finger so that at time of trigger break the press is directly back and inline
Regarding support hand
Very little force is needed I only use it as and auxiliary to help keep alignment through trigger break. So on semi auto I tend to have it placed high on the dustcover not over lap my shooting hand
But actually I think of this use as a modified one hand style.
With revolvers I keep my support hand away from the cylinder. Another reason to use this "modified one hand approach".
The videos sort of describes staging but not use that term.
 
NOBODY is suggesting that you shouldn't be positive. You seem to be confusing what you consider NEGATIVE LANGUAGE with negative feedback/reinforcement/punishment. They're not the same thing.

What we're really talking about is something called "instrumental learning" and that's broadly referred to as behaviorism. It has four components:

1) Positive reinforcement occurs when you reward the proper behavior. If you don't see the proper behavior you can't reward it. How you get to the desired positive behavior can be time-consuming. Saying "roll the trigger" is not positive reinforcement, neither is saying "don't jerk the trigger." But when the desired results are achieved you can praise the results or offer other forms of reward.

2) Negative reinforcement comes when you take away something that the trainee considers unpleasant. Hard to do that effectively in most classroom environments, as it means you must be ready to start out using negative environmental tools in the training process.

3) Positive punishment comes from the delivery of something unpleasant, like verbal abuse or a spanking. With pets and people this will sometimes STOP the undesired behavior, but if an alternative behavior isn't taught (and positively reinforced) the undesired behavior can continue away form the training process.
  • The problem with positive punishment is that, away from a controlled environment, like a training class, it's hard to tell if it's really successful, because it may simply be that the trainee has figured out how to NOT GET CAUGHT doing the undesired behavior. It doesn't mean he or she has really bought into the training concepts being presented.
4) Negative punishment is the process of taking away something that's desired. This used to be popular with small children; with teenagers, it might be the suspension of computer or phone privileges with teenagers.
  • But, like positive punishment, you simply can't know whether the desired training result has been accomplished outside of the training environment. As soon as the punishment is removed, the negative result may reappear..
Those are the four different types of INSTRUMENTAL LEARNING defined by behaviorists, and using the WHEEL OF ERRORS doesn't really suggest that you must use types 2, 3, or 4. You want to use type 1, and I agree. How you respond to your analysis of a trainee's performance is totally up to you.

If someone is doing something dangerous in a training class, it's hard to use positive reinforcement -- as you must immediately stop that behavior. But how you deal with the behavior after it is stopped can be much more positive. That's what good trainers do.

The Wheel of Errors is simply an analytical tool. You don't have to show it to your students, and if you say "roll the trigger" instead of "don't jerk the trigger." you may have found a better way to provide the feedback that will improve your student's performance.

  • But if you say, "it looks like you're pulling the trigger too forcefully, and that forceful pull can cause you to unintentionally jerk the barrel down as your finger moves to the rear." and then suggest "try rolling the trigger instead, and you'll have a smoother pull that may not drag the barrel down," those two sentences, a more expanded explanation, may be more effective.
It's how YOU do it that matters, not just the terms used.

If you have a better way to shape behavior have at it -- and positive reinforcement IS the most effective technique to use in your classes. But you have to find something positive to reinforce before you can reinforce it, and that can take time.

There is more than one way to be positive and to make the training experience a positive one -- and doing things directly, in a very positive way can save time and money, and speed up the training process.
.
No, I'm not confused. Usually the student can figure out that he/ she is doing something wrong. I believe that suggesting that the student do it "this way", without even mentioning that he/she "jerked the trigger, etc." is a better way of instructing than to mention any negative aspect. I've seen too many students so hung up on what they are doing wrong, that they lose sight of what the correct technique is.
 
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By "wheel of misfortune" I can only assume you're referring to this:

maxresdefault.jpg


This is neither positive nor negative reinforcement; it's just a tool. This tool is only showing a possibility. If the shooter is placing shots low/left, then the image offers some reason as to why that's happening. If you have an illness, a doctor is going to examine the symptoms to help determine a course of action to help you heal. This is no different.

Neither is this tool absolute. Jerking the trigger could cause misses other than low/left. The diagram is just something to help find possible solutions. It's not a judgement on your character.
 
Shooting well is flawless execution of the basic fundamentals every shot . Many times new shooters get fixated on the bullseye & not the front sight . We just flipped the target over & told them shoot me a group . After awhile they focus on the front sight & suddenly they're shooting groups . But of course without mastering the fundamentals that's not possible . Personally I'd rather teach women because they'll listen to you , men not so much .
 
Keep in mind that now all shooters were meant to be experts. Some are naturals and some never will be. Just ask any military sniper. Practice makes perfect is a lie. PERFECT practice makes perfect.

Practicing the wrong thing makes one very good at.......doing the wrong thing......
 
I haven't seen this mentioned, although I may have overlooked it. If you don't have a lot of experience with handguns, get a .22.

What type doesn't matter that much, as long as it's a full-sized one. There is nothing better for learning.
 
Man,thank you guys for the input.But I think now I input overload.There seems to be to many things to think about at one time.I think i'll Shoot a few hundred rounds,then take a lesson or two and see what happens.Of course all things being equal, I'd like to shoot all bulls, but I don't see that happening, with my age, arthritis, and my eyes, I think I would like to be competent at 7-10 yds, inside my house range, such as 6" group at center mass, so thanks for your help, and i'll Keep y'all posted.
 
Man,thank you guys for the input.But I think now I input overload.There seems to be to many things to think about at one time.I think i'll Shoot a few hundred rounds,then take a lesson or two and see what happens.Of course all things being equal, I'd like to shoot all bulls, but I don't see that happening, with my age, arthritis, and my eyes, I think I would like to be competent at 7-10 yds, inside my house range, such as 6" group at center mass, so thanks for your help, and i'll Keep y'all posted.
Unless you have a good idea of the fundamentals of marksmanship, you'll likely reinforce bad habits and when you get instruction you'll have to break the bad habits before you start learning how to apply the basic fundamentals. It is also a bad sign that you are already making excuses for a poor performance and setting goals so low. I am giving advice as someone who started pistol shooting the wrong way (alone) and who now is old as dirt and has physical problems which impact my performance. I read a lot of books (pre-internet) and still reinforced bad habits before I was able to identify them and eliminate them. Trust me, learn from a good teacher from the get go. I wish I had. I took my wife to the range the day before yesterday (Valentines Day 2019). She hadn't been shooting for 4 years, but learned the proper fundamentals way back when and hadn't shot before getting instruction. She was shooting a pistol that she didn't like (hard, creepy trigger) according to her. She is just a year younger than I (I'm older than dirt) and has medical problems, i.e. arthritis, poor eyesight, neuropathy, etc. She shot these 10 shots at 7 yards, standing, unsupported.
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Teaching yourself to shoot is a bit like trying to be your own trial lawyer. In either situation, you run the risk of having a fool for a client! :)

As BE Mike notes above, if you don't know what to do and how to do it, self-instruction can cause you to develop some very bad habits that could be difficult to overcome.

Just one or two sessions with a trainer could speed the learning process and those sessions might actually save you time and money over the long run, if only by just reducing the amount of ammo you might otherwise waste punching holes in targets where you didn't want them to go.
 
Are you an experienced handgun shooter? How old are you? Good eyesight...can you see the sights? Steady hand? Stance?
 
Shoot 5 rounds at 3 yards on a 3x3" target. It's an accuracy drill, NOT a speed drill. When you consistently get 90% move the target to 5 yards.
Then 7 and 10.
 
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