NRA Instructor change for Basic Pistol class

[nawilson]

I don't understand what you mean here. Instructors will still be able to charge for the live portion of the class. This assumes anyone signs up for the live portion.

My main beef is the lack of quality instruction from computer based courses. The Air Force has been using computer courses for years. The only benefit is saving class time. The actual retention is much lower than from a live class.

The Army has been doing the computer based, distance learning classes for several years, too. The only real, practical, and noticeable benefit I've seen is when it is done as a preview of the material prior to the classroom instruction. When used as stand alone training, I think that the only benefits go to the contractors that design the computer program. Retention and understanding are pretty low.

I also don't understand how anyone expects to learn a skill from a computer. That requires human interaction. Anyone want to go to a brain surgeon that learned from an online college?

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Looks like 2nd and 3rd from the left's revolvers are pointed at 4th from the left's foot . . . but it's probably okay, since 4th is pointing back at 3rd's foot . . .

THAT's what you see? What I see is that the 4th is holding some kind of pinto!

 

[yanici]

The Basic Pistol course, as it is now taught, is one safety class that qualifies a student to apply for a hand gun permit. The new online class has not been sanctioned nor have any of their other classes if taught online. The cost is going to go up because now the NRA will get their cut but the live portion will still need to be paid. This cost increase will deter many from taking the class and thus we will have fewer licensed gun owners here in MA.

 

[bunkshaner]

I've been waiting for a class to come available within a reasonable travel time away to get certified as an instructor so I guess this is gonna put a huge damper on those plans. (Only been able to find classes over 300 miles away)

But the biggest issue I see with this is people applying for conceal carry permits in certain states. A lot of states will not approve permits that applicants have taken any online Basic Pistol/concealed carry classes.

My home state (Delaware) actually dropped accepting certain states (Reciprocity) who allow online classes to obtain their home state concealed carry permits.

I know a few states accept full online only classes but some of the tougher states are going to really have issues with this new way of obtaining the instruction.

 

[pawncop]

FWIW, this is an educational trend in other fields. I am a PALS (Pediatric Advanced Life Support) instructor. We train physicians, nurses, respiratory therapists, pharmacists, and others in the methods and techniques of resuscitating infants and children experiencing cardiac arrest, shock, and respiratory distress.

The AHA (American Heart Association) has changed the renewal program to online with a clinical portion where the skills are demonstrated in a bedside setting. This used to be a one day program led by a lead instructor and assisted by bedside instructors.

The initial class for those taking PALS for the first time is a two (2) day class taught in the traditional style.

We get many comments regarding the staff's feeling of the change. I would estimate it is about 50/50 positive and negative.

My biggest concern is online is not for everyone but so far have not observed a major lapse in performance.

 

[old&slow]

I have heard about and seen instructors that change or short-cut the courses. So, I can sort of understand the need for a standard.

However, as has been mentioned by several others. There is a lot more that goes on in a live class than just page turning. Most of the NRA instructors that I know have decades of knowledge and experience that you just ain't going to get out of a computer.

I've sit in on other instructors classes just so I could maybe pick up some pointers and become a better instructor. Most of the time there is more knowledge, in the front of that class, than you can pack into a 12 hour class. ( 12hrs is the Ohio requirement ) .

The 'E-Learning' , computer training, video games, etc. are OK and maybe interesting. But you don't have that knowledge & experience right there in front of you to ask and talk to.. I think the NRA maybe missing the boat on this one..

 

[M3Stuart]

For me it was never about the money,I got involved with teaching
so I could pass along my years of experience to help first time gun owners enjoy the sport and stay safe ! as an RSO at my local range I can tell you that there are so many new gun owners out there that have absolutely no clue.I've been a NRA member since 1974 I support the NRA ,but not this change.

I haven't taught a rifle course since my son aged out of Boy Scouts over a year ago. That said, I wonder if there are any similar changes to the rifle course. For the life of me I can't imagine any firearm course being taught over the internet.

If it is possible, then I guess every kid whoever played Call of Duty is fully qualified on every weapon

...and I also would be one of those who would not be renewing...

 

[Rastoff]

I wonder if there are any similar changes to the rifle course.

Not at first. They are starting with the Basic Pistol and then will expand to the other courses as they work out the kinks. At least, that's what they say.

I don't think the issue here is simply that it's on line. Remember, they still have to go to a live instructor for demonstration and shooting. I think the biggest issue is that people won't seek the live instruction.

Who knows, maybe it will actually drive more students to take the course. Being able to take the computer portion at any time, day or night, is appealing to some.

 

[old&slow]

I told them, don't refer any of the "E taught" students to me to certify, I will only certify students I have actually taught and trust being on a range with them. I have taught many that don't learn a thing or understand until they get hands on lessons.

H R , I feel pretty much the same way as you.
I became a NRA instructor 25 or so years ago to promote firearm safety.
When it became the requirement for a CCW permit in Ohio. I did classes mostly for friends and family. All the money I made instructing classes may have been enough to buy my grand children ' Happy Meals'.. So, I've never been in it for the money.

And as any Firearms Instructor knows ,, some folks get it,,, others need extra care, sometimes lots of extra care.. Just Ain't going to get that out of a darn book / computer..

 

[adwjc]

My experience with NRA Instruction has been filled with disappointments over the years.

I was trained by my state LE accrediting agency as a Firearms Instructor and Range Master, a position I held for years. Upon retirement, I took an NRA Basic Pistol Instructor's Course from a Training Counselor, and subsequently a RSO Course.

An employment opportunity came up and I applied, now in another state, they wouldn't accept my old creds and said if I had an NRA LE Cert, I could have the job. Called NRA and asked about the class, (80 hours) and inquired about waivers (present your state training records and they give you the cert), since I know a guy who had done this and received the waiver. Oh, we don't do that anymore, you need to take the course over again. Needless to say the job was gone before I could get into a class and take it.

Next thing they do, is change the Certificate process, before - when you bought the training packet, you got the certificate with it and filled it out gave it to the student who successfully completed the course. Now you submit your roster online and they issue a certificate to the student who ponies up another fee after taking your course. I have had students complain about feeling ripped off - who can blame them?

Already in my state, they have their own mandated course for Pistol Licensees, but will accept a NRA Basic Cert less than 1 year old. NRA is going to put themselves out of the instruction and certification business.

 

[yanici]

Here is an interesting read on this subject. A lot of truths in the following: The NRA and Online Training! - Defensive Strategies, LLC

 

[inc]

Hello,

I am new to the forum - I apologize to my esteemed peers and moderators to my left and right if I've missed any of the rules for how to conduct oneself on this space; and thank you for running a neat place.

This morning I woke up with the goal of trying to get the best possible price for a M&P Pistol. Other gun manufacturers in colaboration with the NRA offer discounts to NRA instructors. I typed "M & P NRA instructor discounts" and the search engine landed me in a thread here ("NRA pistol instructor qual with the MP shield 9mm") which in turn lead me to this very interesting thread.

I share the sentiment of some that we live in interesting times, and that the deployment of this new mode of instruction will provide lots of interest and discussion.



For background, I have been an NRA instructor (most of the existing disciplines) for at least 5 years, an NRA Training Counselor for at least five years, and an NRA Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor (multiple disciplines) for at least five years, I have done 5 day LE instructor courses at some of the leading firearms manufacturers' training academies - including S & W Academy in Springfield, SIG's Academy in Epping, and attended much of what Glock offers at its academy in Smyrna.
I do not work for the NRA, nor are my statements intended to give the appearance I am speaking on behalf of the NRA.

NRA LE Firearms Instructor Development schools are typically 40-44hrs, broken down over five 8a-5pm days with one "night" shoot (typically 6p - 10pm). Information on NRA LE training can be found here: NRA Law Enforcement Division|Instructor Development Schools


Thank you for having me.

"The new guy".

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Haven't paid any attention to it... but I'd guess that the NRA will do a very good job with an excellent instructor(s) in video. They'll run some tests, find out what stuff students don't pick up well in the vid and make some changes until they get it right, then put into place. I'd rather have someone like Hikok45 teach the classroom portion on the Net than the so-called instructor who muddled through the TN HCP class I took many years ago.

In any event, change usually isn't as bad as folks fear.

 

[mwtyoung]

The NRA says classes aren't out there for instructors to make money... Why is the NRA making money on the "blended" courses? How much can it cost the NRA after the course is developed?
Why is the NRA stripping certifications from instructors, with no reasons given or even a response to a letter? Only independent instructors, away from the big corporations with big money to donate, are having their certs revoked, many within weeks of changing employment away from the big corporations.
I see a lot of people saying this is creating opportunity. Have you checked your state's requirements to teach classes to get a concealed license? No NRA certification, you can't teach for the cwl. NRA has a stranglehold on the states. If you don't believe me, call the regulators that control issuing training certificates in your own state. The SAF has started a training division. I thought it might be a good idea until I read what the courses require. The SAF program is pretty well impossible for people in a poor state to use. Too much time, consecutive days, a whole lot of shooting. SAF looks like FrontSight. The rich (SAF) deny the poor a way to get a concealed weapon license by demanding too much; the NRA deny the people a way to learn in what is the most proven method of firearm instruction: face to face, as instructions have been given since Aristotle.
I haven't seen any mention of all the proven postal and email addresses the NRA will acquire. Could this be the biggest factor of all?
The NRA threatened me because I refused to teach the class they wanted me to use. It doesn't meet my state's requirements completely and I refused to teach a course that wasn't fully legal.
Stalinism is fully alive and robustly well in the NRA.

 

[Practical]

Some NRA instructors are poor.

A local instructor who took up after an older man retired, tried to pick up where he left off in our community.

The older man was so well trusted and liked he was allowed to teach NRA Basic Pistol in the town's continuing education program IN TOWN BUILDINGS.

This was in NY and an amazing achievenment even 10 years ago.

The younger guy was so bad that he was asked to no longer teach the class in town buildings. My wife who I finally convinced to take the class, walked out the 2nd day.

He practice unsafe gun handling my wife said. Even with UNLOADED guns she felt he was not safe.

The NRA needs MORE quality instructors.

 

[motown]

Great discussion guy's, As an NRA member since 1974 I have to tell you all I will always support the NRA and some of their programs BUT ! I have been searching other ways to teach first time gun owners and new ccw holders, Liability insurance is a must ! More than likely I 'm leaning towards getting certified with the USCCA instructor program and use their instructors tool kit, from all the reviews and feed back I'm getting from other instructors it a very good program,I purchased Michael Martin's book on concealed carry and home defense fundamentals just to check it ,a lot of material i already knew , still very good book ,I would highly recommend.I received another e-mail that the new e-learning program will take effect in late Sept 2015 stay safe !

 

[11B Lifer]

The information is out there

Benefactor, instructor for a long time-
Its great that the information is available-there's no secret to the Basic Pistol curriculum-and people must have the motivation to learn-
If I was new to shooting-I would want a coach on the firing line.
The novice shooter can learn all about safety, accuracy etc. sans the NRA course-The miracle of digital information.
As to the NRA asking for money-they call me all the time-I don't care-The organization is a political powerhouse-And they are very helpful to organizations such as 4H.
The worst pistol courses I have experienced---state sanctioned concealed carry-

 

[H Richard]

Most of the instructors I know have abandoned NRA for CCL courses, and have adapted the USCCA certification. The NRA does a lot for us, and I will not abandon them, but I will no longer teach any courses and I will not renew my Instructor certification when it expires in a couple years. On line self teaching for firearm use is the worst move the NRA has ever done.

 

[yanici]

I guess you all got your emails today from the NRA explaining how the "blended" pistol course will be in effect by the end of this year or early 2016. They think they'll make a lot of money but I'm not sure there will be many instructors left that want to do the "live" portion of the course. I know that I'm quitting. In fact I'll never renew my membership with the NRA again.

 

[Rastoff]

Instructors quitting without having to be removed is part of their plan.

Do you realize that there are over 150,000 NRA certified instructors? Less than 1% of them actually teach. Of those that do actually teach, most of them don't actually follow the NRA curriculum. Yes, instructors quitting is part of the plan.