NRA Instructor change for Basic Pistol class

[H Richard]

I received the same e-mail, basically responding to all the criticism they have been receiving. I told them, don't refer any of the "E taught" students to me to certify, I will only certify students I have actually taught and trust being on a range with them. I wonder what is going to happen when 50% or more of the instructors do the same thing. I have taught many that don't learn a thing or understand until they get hands on lessons.

 

[Herknav]

My main beef is the lack of quality instruction from computer based courses. The Air Force has been using computer courses for years.

Everyone I know clicks through the course as fast as they can to take the test and get it over with. Were I an NRA instructor, I'd think this course robs me of the time I get to know and learn my students before trusting them to handle boomsticks around me. With a classroom portion, you have some idea who needs special attention by the time you hit the range.

I get why the NRA is doing this, but I think they're underestimating the effect on the local instructor. As to the comment about money, NRA is going to lose a lot of money in instructor cert renewals if they keep moving ahead with this plan.

 

[NYlakesider]

I received the same e-mail, basically responding to all the criticism they have been receiving. I told them, don't refer any of the "E taught" students to me to certify, I will only certify students I have actually taught and trust being on a range with them. I wonder what is going to happen when 50% or more of the instructors do the same thing. I have taught many that don't learn a thing or understand until they get hands on lessons.

Back in the 70s early 80s I was a NRA instructor (Let them drop do to circumstances) but I totally agree with what you said with long distance teaching. It's GOT to be up close and personal.

Back in the area I was teaching I was one of the first civilian instructors of the then new pistol permit pre safety course insisted on by a new judge that by law has to sign for every CCW or amendment to purchase a pistol.(Judge not happy judge not sign) I seriously doubt he would have like this new way of doing things either!

 

[H Richard]

In Illinois, our 16 hour training requirement allows the basic pistol course to count for 8 hours. They also allow a DD214 for former military to count for 8 hours, but I spent 4 years in the USAF, and never touched a handgun the entire time, I wouldn't blankly allow the DD214 if I made the rules. When they first announced 16 hours for IL training requirement everyone was complaining. As an instructor I'm not sure 16 hours is enough in many cases. I seriously doubt if many who get a carry license ever practice again. At least it is required to re-qualify every 5 years for renewal of the license.

 

[Mcwsky09]

Why not just crack down on or audit individual instructors? if the problem is only a subset of instructors then why chafe the rules for all? Wouldn't a real threat of losing your certification be enough to handle most of the problem?

 

[Rastoff]

As to the comment about money, NRA is going to lose a lot of money in instructor cert renewals if they keep moving ahead with this plan.

Actually, I think they are hoping that many instructors will not renew. I'll explain that later in this post.

Why not just crack down on or audit individual instructors? if the problem is only a subset of instructors then why chafe the rules for all? Wouldn't a real threat of losing your certification be enough to handle most of the problem?

I agree, but you're not counting the cost of doing these audits. It would be very expensive to have a "master" instructor go around and audit the classes. There are something like 150,000 certified instructors. It's physically impossible to audit them all.

The problem is not a "sub set" but with most certified instructors. Because there is no method to verify instruction, instructors are leaving out large chunks of the class because they don't like it or because it makes the class too long. This is unacceptable when the NRA is trying to create standardized training.

Currently, there is no training or test for an instructor to renew. Therefore, there are thousands of instructors who've simply been renewing for decades and haven't taught a single class in all that time. I'll bet most of them couldn't even tell you where their materials are. I know of one instructor in Florida who teaches the basic pistol class in about 20 minutes. That's physically impossible if all the material is covered. I know another here in California who teaches the First Steps class, but gives out the full certificate for the basic pistol class. She told me the basic class is just too long and she doesn't feel she needs to spend that much time. Instructors like these make all of us look bad.

So, the NRA is planning on requiring a test or re-certification to renew your credentials in the future. I'm sure that will thin the herd. I personally know at least 15 certified instructors who have never taught a single class. They just got the cert so they could say they're instructors. I'm sure they will not renew if they have to take a test. Or at least they won't be able to pass any test they are given.

I'm not happy with this new "blended" learning structure. I believe that most students won't seek the live portion of the class. Here in CA none of my students cared if they got a certificate or not. Students like that won't seek out the live portion. For those students who do seek the live portion, I'll bet I'll still have to spend the same amount of time teaching because computer based training is mediocre at best.

 

[H Richard]

As with all things with NRA, there is 2 things: 1. They are looking for the MONEY. They receive nothing for the instructor to teach the class except the "materials" the instructor orders, which they will still need if the student wants the Cert. 2. Liability. Some attorney looking for deep pockets may go into court and inc. NRA into a suit claiming the NRA Instructor is liable as he didn't teach the student you shouldn't shoot other people etc., and the Instructor is an extension of the NRA. This training they can then show in court as the "standard" training the student was given.

 

[Rastoff]

What bugs me more about this than anything else is that they didn't ask for input from us. Sure, I wouldn't want to wade through a lot of correspondence either, but it could have avoided a lot of the back lash.

Has anyone met an instructor that likes this better?

 

[dcxplant]

I let my students handle over 20 different handguns and fire 10 different calibers. The newbie needs to have hands on. NRA is screwing this up

Same here. My students handle many types of pistols, field strip them etc.

Gun handling in a safe classroom environment IMO is crucial. Many new shooters are nervous and some downright afraid of the guns, because media has taught everyone guns are "deadly".

The other crucial part of a class is the peer learning and interaction. So much for the NRA's TCP (total class participation) philosophy.

Now it looks like "place credit card info here".

 

[BigBoy99]

With the move to "online everything", I waiting for the NRA to implement "online hunting" where you never have to leave the comfort of your easy chair and can bag that big buck you have been after all these past years!

 

[H Richard]

I did the same thing, I took just about every kind of handgun action available to classes, and showed with hands on, how to open the handgun to check to verify if it was unloaded. #1 push, "Always assume a firearm is loaded until you verify it is not". I would estimate 1/3 of the students (mostly youth or female) had not handled any handguns previously, and needed hands on to become comfortable holding a handgun and verifying it was unloaded.

 

[southcoast]

Who says NRA has to be the only game in town? Looks like opportunity to me. Createa competing alternative that meets safety and training requirements. Kinda like SAT vs ACT or the three credit bureaus. There is enough knowledge and experience on this forum alone to establish a proper alternative. Someone gives you lemons then what do you do? Where is the entrepreneur spirit amongst us?

 

[Moonman]

I think maybe a GRASSROOTS talk with State Legislators may stimulate some dialog between the troops and the FAIRFAX crowd!

 

[Rastoff]

I see a couple of guys here are concerned about gun handling and offer many different types of guns to handle. I too offer several gun types to my students to handle. This aspect will not go away. If, and I stress if, the students seek the live portion, they will still be able to handle all those guns.

The part that bugs me is the other stuff. I've had many students with questions about how the cartridge works. Those types of questions are going to be more difficult for the students through on line instruction.

What I'm seeing, is a longer class. They will do the on line portion and then come do it all again in a live class.

 

[williamlayton]

HUMMMMM ?!
Certified--who makes the certifier, certified to certify.
Who is this great MOJO ?
I been giving instruction for years.---On a lot of things.
Blessings

 

[Moonman]

The NRA is handling this issue VERY POORLY with its Instructors and TC's.

 

[Bat Guano]

Sounds like higher ed in general: preserve the illusion while the real mission is to strengthen the institution and the perks. Then too there is the whole issue of what does the student bring to the class in terms of motivation and attitude. Sometimes it strikes me as being similar to a 6 minute car wash--do the best you can within the limitations, hope you accomplished something, and out they go. (Crossed fingers.)

Have the NRA certifications, and did this stuff as part of my job. Some people are switched on to begin with, and some are completely untrainable on their best day. One-on-one works well for me, and sometimes I half-seriously suggest the person just buy fewer guns and take a Gunsite 250 class. At least that would demonstrate a level of commitment. (No takers to date that I know of.)

I like instructing, but if you make it too cheap or easy, it's not valued. Plus the potential liability bothers me ("BG said it was ok to do this...BANG!")

Sometimes I think people should have to go on a quest and do some adjusting before grabbing Excalibur. But that's just me, and I'm "different".

 

[Rastoff]

Then too there is the whole issue of what does the student bring to the class in terms of motivation and attitude.

Learning is 80% desire. I've always had motivated students in my Basic Pistol or Shotgun classes. Why? Because they sought the training. When someone is required to take the training, the desire is often much less.

I like instructing, but if you make it too cheap or easy, it's not valued.

This also is true. People must value the training or only some of it will stick.

Plus the potential liability bothers me ("BG said it was ok to do this...BANG!")

This is why every instructor needs to carry professional liability insurance. It covers you in case someone says, "Well, Rastoff told me..." I actually state in my classes that the defense of, "Rastoff said..." will not help you in court.

 

[Andy Griffith]

I see this as a great time for an alternative to the NRA class.

The classes are MORE than just classes- they ARE the face of the NRA- it's how many people are introduced to the NRA.

They are screwing up terribly on this one.
This is bad politics all around.

 

[Calaveras Slim]

Just received an e-mail yesterday from the NRA on the myths & facts about e-learning! this new blended training for Basic Pistol. First I will bet money, That when a student that has taken the e-learning portion of the course, and steps up to the firing line, the instructors will be scratching their heads and say are you freaking kidding me ! Just saying !All students are different some get it some need a little extra help with eye contact, HANDS ON ! with a 1-1 classroom setting with an instructor, I find it very hard to believe that this e-learning will totally replace a good instructor that has years of knowledge that he can pass along. the e-learning can be taken by using a smartphone, tablet or desktop computer,And for you folks that don't own a device the NRA says students can go to any public library and take the course ,Yea OK ! Here's whats gonna happen with this e-learning, a student is going to go on-line and take the course and pass ! ,and when it comes time for the live fire range time, the instructor will be teaching parts of the classroom portion of the course on the firing line! that should have been covered in the classroom ! And the NRA says that the instructor has the final say ! All students have different learning abilities, a good instructor can switch gears and tailor his approach for the individual student and get the results he wants. Follow the Money !!

Motown, I agree. Also what I see happening is when these folk without puters go to the library or some other public place to use theirs, then the library will see what the puter is used for and block that site.