NYPD 2 inch Model 10's; now with serial number data

[RM Vivas]

The vast vast -VAST- majority of NYCPD M&P/M10's were of the 4 inch variety.

However, for reasons I have not yet ascertained, the Department took in and then sold to officers 400 2 inch RB M10's in the mid-1980's.

These guns are actually fairly scarce if one is into NYCPD guns and are hard to recognize as they don't carry departmental markings or shield number.

While going through my files I came across the sales paperwork for all 400. Rather than scan it I'm transcribing it into the database that I use for the other guns. Unlike those however, these guns will be searchable by me under the following fields: inventory number, serial number, officers name, shield #, tax #, command. Unfortunately the actual sales dates didn't make it into my records but I'm working on that.

I'm about halfway through the transcription process now. Once it's done I'll either post all the data here or post a link to where I kep it on my (under re-construction) website. The posted versions will omit tax #'s.

After that I think I'm going to start trying to transcribe the Terrier and Regulation Police sales.

 

[MTS Cop]

I'm guessing they were authorized as off duty guns?

 

[RM Vivas]

I'm guessing they were authorized as off duty guns?

If you were in uniform ("in the bag") they would have been offduty. However I see that ate least 3-4 were purchased detectives and a couple went to folks whose commands were listed as MTS

 

[RM Vivas]

Serial Number Data

I've completed transcribing the S&W Model 10 2-inch RB serial number data.

It's presented here in a .pdf document that has the guns -----arranged by Equipment Inventory #-----.

This link will take you to the page where I have the data -----sorted by serial number-----.

NYPD Guns Page - Smith & Wesson Model 10 RB 2 Inch

 

[Detmongo]

that's great I'm on that list and I still have the gun.

 

[RM Vivas]

that's great I'm on that list and I still have the gun.

You have what is one of the rarer NYCPD guns. Probably the only one scarcer is the Dan Wesson Model 11 which I have found 0 data on.

What motivated you to buy the 2inch 10 instead of a 36? Were you new or had you been on 'da job for a while?

 

[kbm6893]

A lot of the commands are listed as NSU. That stood for Neighborhood Stabilization Unit, which were the units all rookies went to for 6 months after graduating the academy. They then went on to regular commands. NSU's are long gone, replaced by FTU's (field training units located in the rookie cop's permanent command), and then Impact Units, also located in your permanent command. I'm guessing rookies not only wanted more firepower with the 6th round that the model 10 offered, but they could use the same speedloaders that they used for their duty guns. Technically, speedloaders weren't officially authorized until a cop named Scott Gadell was shot at point blank range as he was attempting to reload his revolver from dump pouches during a gunfight. But many guys carried them and the bosses didn't bust chops over them. I can definitely see rookies getting speedloaders to appear more "seasoned". Most ditched their standard Jay Pee holster for the swivel version even though they were no longer authorized. Again, to appear to be more seasoned.

I'm also guessing that since NYC cops were notoriously cheap, that not many cops who came on the job before these guns were authorized were gonna sell their 5 shot Chiefs to buy another gun for one more round, or buy the new Model 10's if they didn't already have an off duty before they became available.

 

[kbm6893]

RMRivas, how many blued Ruger Service Sixes with the spurred hammer are out there? I know they were around for a while but I never saw one in person.

 

[old bear]

that's great I'm on that list and I still have the gun.

Sir, that is way cool. And welcome to the forum.

 

[RM Vivas]

RMRivas, how many blued Ruger Service Sixes with the spurred hammer are out there? I know they were around for a while but I never saw one in person.

I can only extrapolate a figure based on the records I have. I can account by serial number for about a thousand or so of the blued one. I suspect the actual number was closer to about 5,000 over the service period they covered.

I have a couple in my collection as well as the color coded speedloaders that went with them.

 

[dscampbell]

With your connections to the department would you be able to find out how many officers are still carrying a revolver as their duty gun?


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[kbm6893]

With your connections to the department would you be able to find out how many officers are still carrying a revolver as their duty gun?


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Certainly less than 200. The duty revolver was phased out in 1993. Those still on the job more than likely went to the semi auto when they could. It was a day off patrol to qualify and a free gun, so most jumped on it. I bet it's less than 100. And most of those are the stainless DAO revolvers. I bet there are less than 20 duty carry (not off duty revolvers) blued spurred hammer revolvers on the job.

I bet there are less than 500 off duty revolvers out there. You had to buy your own off duty so it wasn't a free gun like the duty guns were. And lots of guys just used the Glock 19 as their duty and off duty gun.

 

[dscampbell]

Certainly less t han 200. The duty revolver was phased out in 9 93. Those still on the job more than likely went to the semi auto when they could. It was a day off patrol to qualify and a free gun, so most jumped on it. I bet it's less than 100. And most of those are the stainless DAO revolvers. I bet there are less than 20 duty carry (not off duty revolvers) blued spurred hammer revolvers on the job.

I bet there are less than 500 off duty revolvers out there. You had to buy your own off duty so it wasn't a free gun like the duty guns were. And lots of guys just used the Glock 19 as their duty and off duty gun.

Thank you for the information

 

[RM Vivas]

Certainly less than 200. The duty revolver was phased out in 1993. Those still on the job more than likely went to the semi auto when they could. It was a day off patrol to qualify and a free gun, so most jumped on it. I bet it's less than 100. And most of those are the stainless DAO revolvers. I bet there are less than 20 duty carry (not off duty revolvers) blued spurred hammer revolvers on the job.

I bet there are less than 500 off duty revolvers out there. You had to buy your own off duty so it wasn't a free gun like the duty guns were. And lots of guys just used the Glock 19 as their duty and off duty gun.

There's thousands of off duty revolvers being carried by guys still on 'da job. I have an invoice in front of me for 600 M640's ca. 1996.

If you're asking how many BLUED SA/DA guns are still doing off duty use, I'd say a couple thousand and that's mostly bosses and dinosaur detectives.

As far as stainless DAO revolvers, -thousands-.

I have an invoice here for 1993 showing 2,000 M640's in 1994 as well as 500 M64 NY-1 2 inch guns. SPNY's are another couple grand. This is just an early-mid 1990's snapshot.

This doesn't include "dual duty" 3 inch guns like the GPNY and M64 NY-1, both of which came in a 3 inch.

I think there will always be a piece of tin with a revolver -someplace-.

 

[bronco45]

RM Vivas, thank you so much for all your contributions to this forum. Always noteworthy and often entertaining! Thanks again!

 

[kbm6893]

There's thousands of off duty revolvers being carried by guys still on 'da job. I have an invoice in front of me for 600 M640's ca. 1996.

If you're asking how many BLUED SA/DA guns are still doing off duty use, I'd say a couple thousand and that's mostly bosses and dinosaur detectives.

As far as stainless DAO revolvers, -thousands-.

I have an invoice here for 1993 showing 2,000 M640's in 1994 as well as 500 M64 NY-1 2 inch guns. SPNY's are another couple grand. This is just an early-mid 1990's snapshot.

This doesn't include "dual duty" 3 inch guns like the GPNY and M64 NY-1, both of which came in a 3 inch.

I think there will always be a piece of tin with a revolver -someplace-.

Thousands of guns as of 20 years ago doesn't mean they're being carried today. Sure, there are far more off duty revolvers being carried, but the last blued guns were issued nearly 30 years ago. The vast majority of those guys who had them are retired. Of those who still have more than 30 years on the job, not all of them ever bothered to buy an off duty piece.

Last off duty revolver was issued over 20 years ago. Most of those guys are retired. And again, not everybody bought an off duty revolver in 1995. The semi auto had arrived and guys knew it was a matter of time until the off duty semi was approved.

In addition, the job was heavily pushing guys with revolvers to go to the semi auto. They didn't want to keep stockpiling .38 ammo and the qualification cycle was different than semi autos. Guys with revolvers were heavily advised to go to the semi auto.

Thousands of revolvers still in service? Not a chance. Off duty and on duty the number isn't even close to 1000. Check out this article written in 2004 regarding the "vanishing .38".

In New York, Old-School Officers Swear By the Vanishing .38 - NYTimes.com

 

[RM Vivas]

Thousands of guns as of 20 years ago doesn't mean they're being carried today. Sure, there are far more off duty revolvers being carried, but the last blued guns were issued nearly 30 years ago. The vast majority of those guys who had them are retired. Of those who still have more than 30 years on the job, not all of them ever bothered to buy an off duty piece.

Last off duty revolver was issued over 20 years ago. Most of those guys are retired. And again, not everybody bought an off duty revolver in 1995. The semi auto had arrived and guys knew it was a matter of time until the off duty semi was approved.

In addition, the job was heavily pushing guys with revolvers to go to the semi auto. They didn't want to keep stockpiling .38 ammo and the qualification cycle was different than semi autos. Guys with revolvers were heavily advised to go to the semi auto.

Thousands of revolvers still in service? Not a chance. Off duty and on duty the number isn't even close to 1000. Check out this article written in 2004 regarding the "vanishing .38".

In New York, Old-School Officers Swear By the Vanishing .38 - NYTimes.com

I remember that article. The focus though was on on-duty guns.

I see your point about everyone switching to automatics.

I can recall at the time that Jovino was buying 10's and 36's at $20-25 a pop and selling them to me for a C-note each. The M64 NY-1's were a bit more money. There were 5-gallon pails chock full of revolvers!

When automatics were authorized in 1993 a huge number of guys ran out and grabbed one. Similarly all the new kids just coming on had their choice of the S&W, Ruger, SIG or GLOCK. No ON-DUTY revolvers were sold after 1993.

However, for the period 1993 to 1996 (just a brief period for which I actually have the records out on my desk right now) I can account for about 4,000 revolvers in the off-duty configuration (DAO, stainless and 2 or 3-inch). This doesn't include post 1996 sales which I am too lazy to go digging for right now.

Presuming the average Joe does a 20 year hitch (and quite a few go a few years longer) it would not be unreasonable to imagine that a lot of those kids who came on in 1993 (first year autos) are still on patrol. Since those thousands of revolvers were acquired and sold after 1993, a great many should still be in use.

When automatics first came out (although technically 1993 was the –second- roll out of automatics, the first having been detectives getting them in 1916) the department was still requiring that officers purchase their guns. The 'free gun' program was still a few years away.

Part of the reason for the adoption of the 3 inch gun in 1987 was something I call the "Unigun Theory". The Department was encouraging that guys have ONE gun, the idea being that if you carried it all the time on duty AND off duty, the odds of something bad happening with a gun being stolen decreased. After all, burglars can't make off with a piece left in the unoccupied house if you have it with you on and off duty. Sounds crazy but at the time there were something like 200-250 guns a year being written up as lost/stolen.

Automatics were supposed to be a furtherance of this, especially when combined with the lifting of the requirement to be armed off duty (although this was largely related to guys getting their load on and Acting Badly). However, as Equipment Bureau sales figures show, the 'automatics only' generation still bought a surprising number of wheel guns.

Are revolvers grossly outnumbered on the street? Absolutely! However, I still maintain that if you shook down everyone when they were off-duty, you'd find quite a number of revolvers still wandering about.

I don't want to turn this into a revolver v. auto thing or otherwise hijack the thread. Autos outnumber revolvers on the street, but I maintain that they will be around for a good bit longer. This will have to be one of those things where agree to disagree

I just posted a bunch of M60 NY-1 serial numbers of guns returned by the Department to S&W in 1989; it's in another post but the link to it on my website is: NYPD Guns Page - Smith & Wesson Model 60 NY-1

 

[dscampbell]

Wow I was totally unaware of NYCPD not requiring off duty carry. I would not want to run the risk of being somewhere and needing a weapon and not having one. I guess it is a case of city versus country.


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[kbm6893]

RM Rivas, you are a wealth of info regarding NYPD guns and your info regarding the switch to semi autos is dead on. I remember guys selling their off duty .38's to help finance the purchase of an off duty semi auto. I also remember the number of guys qualifying with .38's at the range dwindling with every range cycle. A few of my friends are still in the job and they see less than 5 guys out of several hundred at the qual cycle doing the revolver qualification. So while I'm sure their are still guys on the job who came on in 1993, most of those revolvers are hanging in their lockers or being used as nightstand guns for the wives. The lure of a free gun and a day off patrol is too enticing for most cops!

As for the blued ones, I would bet there are less than 100 being carried as duty guns, and maybe a couple hundred at most being carried as off duty guns. Very few guys go more than 30 years. Only the big bosses do that. And if you ask most guys why they carry a wheel gun, they say "status". Let's people know you have time on. The last class to get the blued guns was in 1987 I think. Those guys would call the very next class that came out (who got the stainless DAO guns) "kids"! But the big bosses don't need a wheel gun to show status. The bird or stars on their uniform shows that. And those big bosses don't carry a duty gun anyway. They're always in dress uniform.

Man, I wish Jovinos was still selling 10's and 36's for a hundred bucks!

 

[kbm6893]

Wow I was totally unaware of NYCPD not requiring off duty carry. I would not want to run the risk of being somewhere and needing a weapon and not having one. I guess it is a case of city versus country.


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You still are required to be armed at all times, except when appearing in family court or when it isn't practical, say at the beach. Only thing that changed is the regs used to say "officer has discretion when drinking alcohol" and now they say "officer may not be armed while drinking alcohol". Matter of fact, an off duty cop who shot a guy beating his girlfriend was about to be fired until the news ran a scathing article about it. Cop was having a few beers at his own house when he heard the screaming and ran outside to investigate. Guy tried to take the cops head off and received a well deserved bullet. Standard procedure now is to take a breathalyzer after a shooting and the cop came up impaired. He was on the chopping block till that article hit criticizing the job for firing him and they backed off.