Old Eyes, New Scope, and Poor Shooting

Ole Joe Clark

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This forum is a great source of information concerning almost anything, and I have question concerning a fairly new scope, my old eyes and my poor shooting. Just like the title says, and I have a question, maybe more than one.

Here goes.

As most of you know I have an old Marlin model 80 DL, bolt action rifle that I have owned for more than 50 years.

A couple of years ago, I replaced the old Weaver scope with a Leupold VX Freedom, 3-9 x 40, 1" Rimfire-MOA scope.

When I did this, my shooting went to pot. My normal distance is 25 yds, and I know that is not very far, but my age (78), eyesight, shaking, and other things makes it hard to get the smaller groups that I have in the past.

My plan is/was to get the 25 yd groups down, then I would move to 50 yds etc.

I normally shoot on the bench, (eyesight is bad) with bags and the scope at 9X. But my groups are about 3/4 to 1" in diameter.

Today, the MBH and I went to the range and shot pistols then moved to the .22's.

I was fooling with the Marlin, trying to tweak the scope, and I reduced the magnification from 9X to 6X. I quickly noticed that I could see the target clearer and the group started to shrink, to about 1/2". I then moved it back to 9X and the group was larger.

What is going on, and is it a common issue? Any hints to help me shrink the groups? I know I can't do as good as most of you guys can, but maybe I can learn some new tricks that will help.

Thanks in advance for your help and advice.

Have a blessed day,

Leon
 
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Does the scope have a parallax adjustment? If so, that would help with the clarity of the focus at different shooting distances. The Parallax adjustment is at the front of the scope.

Here's an article on parallax and diopter adjustment.....

Parallax Adjustment – 2021 Guide on Understanding and Correcting Parallax - Gun Mann

Carter

The scope is supposed to be adjusted for parallax at 60 yards since it is designed for .22 caliber and other relatively short range shooting.

Thanks,

Leon
 
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It's pretty simple; set your scope to 6X when shooting off the bench at 25 yards! ;)

Scopes lose clarity and brilliance as you increase the magnification. It's just the nature of the beast. If you've ever used a 36X benchrest scope, you know how dim and grainy they can be at 100 yards in moderate light. They're all but useless at 25 yards.

The "exit pupil" (diameter of the beam of light coming out of the ocular lens/back of the scope) is determined by the diameter of the objective lens and the magnification. A scope with a 40mm objective lens set at 9X gives an exit pupil of 4.4mm. The same scope set at 6X has an exit pupil of 6.7mm, which is about the maximum your eye can take in. In simplest terms, you want the scope to provide as much light as possible into your eye. Setting the scope at a lower power will give a larger exit pupil, but your eye can't use the excess because your pupils can't dilate more than 6-7mm. Lower power will give you more room for alignment error (off center right/left, up/down), while still providing a full field of view.

It's also important to properly focus the scope to your eye. It's easiest to do with a fast focus eye piece, but you have to deal with what you've got. To focus a variable power scope, set your magnification to 9X and focus both your eyes on a well defined cloud. Quickly bring the scope up and note the sharpness of the reticle. Keep both eyes open and try to stay focused on the cloud. You eye will compensate, so don't look at the reticle too long. Do this a few times while adjusting the eyepiece, until you get it dialed in and the reticle is sharp and clear. Set the lock ring and call it good. If you wear corrective lenses while shooting, wear them when you set the focus.

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I'll add one more thing. .22's can be very ammo sensitive. 1" at 25 yards isn't horrible for an economical sporting rifle, even with a scope. I've had good luck with CCI standard velocity. Wolf match and Eley usually offer better accuracy, but they come at a steep increase in price.
 
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Chad is dead on, but there might be other things going on. The parallax might be good at 60 yards at 9X, but at 25 yards with that magnification, maybe not so much.

I have a 4-12X scope on a Swiss K31 that I have shot off a fancy bench device. If I crank it up to 12X I sometimes find myself "chasing" the sight picture at 100 yards. If I back it down to 8X or even 6X I find it easier to "center up" like you do with a peep sight. Call it a "human factors" thing.
 
You might just try 4x power for the 25-50 yards shots, since the scope is...

4-5 times more accurat than iron sights, that we used when young, with good eyes.

You might also try with your glasses on and also without them........

You never know what will help.
Good shooting.
 
Thanks for the great replies, keep them coming. Now I have several good reasons to get back to the range!

Have a blessed day,

Leon
 
I had the same problem for awhile. I changed to fixed power scopes, and life became a lot easer.
 
I shoot Prairie Dogs, and using a 6-18X Leupold, I seldom get to over 12 or at max 14X. When you are looking at furry objects out at 300 to 500 yards, clarity is more important than magnification.

The newer scopes that have the paralex adjustment on a side knob make things much easier. Wish I had one.
 
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I shoot Prairie Dogs, and using a 6-18X Leupold, I seldom get to over 12 or at max 14X. When you are looking at furry objects out at 300 to 500 yards, clarity is more important than magnification.

Plus over 14x, the heat waves and wind move the targets
all over the place, which can cause misses.
It is nice to see the "Boil" but is even better to be able to hit the target.

I remember one parrie dog on high power, one summer, that looked like it took
dancing lessons from Michel Jackson !!
 
It's easy to see if your scope has parallax error at the distance you're shooting. Place the rifle in a solid rest and aim the scope at the target. Without moving the rifle, look through the scope and slightly move your eye right/left and up/down. If the crosshairs move off the center of the bullseye, you have parallax error. If the crosshairs and target move together and stay aligned, the parallax error is eliminated.
 
S&WChad has it correct. next time out, move you eye/head from left to right while looking at a target on the bench, if that target moves around, there is your problem. those 3x9x40 rimfire Leupold scopes are some of the very best on the market for the price range, I have 4 of them, but all of them have the adjustable AO on the front, which is the parallex adjustment, which also functions as a focus adjustment. I think you have a parallax problem and not understanding that to shoot good groups, you need to make double sure you are looking at the same exact spot each time when on 9 power.
 
S&WChad has it correct. next time out, move you eye/head from left to right while looking at a target on the bench, if that target moves around, there is your problem. those 3x9x40 rimfire Leupold scopes are some of the very best on the market for the price range, I have 4 of them, but all of them have the adjustable AO on the front, which is the parallex adjustment, which also functions as a focus adjustment. I think you have a parallax problem and not understanding that to shoot good groups, you need to make double sure you are looking at the same exact spot each time when on 9 power.

Thanks for all the replies.

After reading the all the great replies, I just went and looked at my scope. I could not see any thing that can be adjusted. Is the "adjustable AO on the front" something that you purchase as an added feature? I will check their web site shortly.

Thanks to everyone for the comments. On a related subject: About a week earlier I shot my Remington .243 with reloads, topped with a 4X Leupold scope that I have had for many years, at least 40. Distance was 100 yds, 3 shots, grouped at about 1.5 inches. I could barely make out the red dot in the bullseye to use as a aiming point.
 
S&W Chad and H Richard pretty well covered the bases, but I'm both going to add a bit more and talk about why it may or may not be what's happening here.

Waaaaayyy too many shooters think more magnification will increase resolution and precision. That's just not the case.

As noted above exit pupil matters as any light outside your pupil is wasted, but worse an exit pupil smaller than your pupil means the fovea of your retina is not fully illuminated or utilized. The effect is a lot like using an electronic zoom on a camera, where a much smaller portion of the chip is used to create the "zoomed" image, but the result is a grainier and darker image.

As noted above with the 36x target scope example, the image quality is poor and, to the extent it works, it works because the target is high contrast.

The current fad driven crop of long range shooters also over magnify thinking it will produce better resolution and let them see the target better, but it doesn't. It might work on steel plates with high contrast against the background in good light, but it won't work with low contrast targets, or in low light.

A lead splashed plate against a dappled tree line and in shadow can be very difficult to see at high magnification. However it will jump right out at you at maybe half that maximum magnification.

There are two things that produce higher resolution - larger objective lens diameter and higher objective lens quality. The cost of larger objectives of the same quality level rises exponentially with diameter, and the cost of more quality also increases exponentially. So a 56mm scope will cost a lot more than a 40mm scope, and if that 56mm lens is also very high quality the price will start with a 3 or a 4 and have a comma in it.

Even then, while the larger lens increases the magnification that can be supported with an adequate exit pupil there are still finite limits. On a heavy overcast day or near dawn or dusk, where your pupil might be 4mm, a 56 mm objective will have a 4mm exit pupil at just 14x. On a partly sunny day with a 2.5mm pupil, a 2.5mm exit pupil occurs at 22x. With a 50 mm objective those magnifications drop to 12.5x and 20x. With a 40 mm objective it drops to 10x and 16x.

I much prefer a razor sharp image to more magnification, and I shoot 1000 plus yards with a 4-14x56 scope. The highest magnification long range scope I have is a 5-25x50 and I almost never use it at more than 18x, and then only on bright sunny days.

——-

That's all good to understand but it's not as relevant with a 3-9x40 scope.

In a 3-9x40 scope the exit pupil will be an 4.4mm ample even at 9x, and work for all but the lowest light conditions.

That said, in the VX Freedom series lens quality is ok, but not stellar so you *might* find the image is better at lower magnification.

Or not, as there are two other things that come into play.

1) at higher magnifications the depth of field becomes shorter, so the range of distances at which objects are from the scope and will still be in sharp focus is much smaller.

That is most evident at short ranges like 25 yards, when the scope is really designed for 50 yards to infinity. I suspect that is 99% of your problem with the fuzzy images at 9x and 25 yards. You will get a longer depth of field at 6x and an even larger depth of field at 3x. That will give you a much sharper focus at close ranges with lower magnification.

Try focusing at something just 10 yards away. 3x will look a lot sharper than 6x, and 9x will look positively horrible.

For that reason higher end rimfire scopes will come with a parallax and focus adjustment to enable the shooter to use maximum magnification at short distances and still get optimum performance.

Many companies use the term "rimfire" to denote just a shorter fixed parallax adjustment of 50-60 yards rather than the 100-150 common on fixed parallax center fire scopes. "Rimfire Target" usually refers to a rimfire scope with a parallax and focus adjustment down to 10 yards or so.


2) parallax error is much more pronounced at higher magnifications. 9x is about the upper limit before an adjustable objective or other parallax adjustment is necessary, which is why you see a lot of 3-9 variables with no parallax adjustment but almost no scopes with a max above 9x that do not have a parallax adjustment.

While focusing on a target at 25 yards at 9x move your eye around being the ocular lens without moving the rifle. You'll see the cross hairs move across the target. That's parallax error. As you can see consistent eye placement behind the scope becomes absolutely vital to accuracy. That's where all the hullabaloo about a good cheek weld comes from.

Now move the magnification down to 3x. Note how much farther you *can* move your eye and still see the full field of view. That's showing you the different the larger exit pupil makes in terms of allowing a more liberal eye placement. But also notice how much farther you *have* to move your eye to get the same shift of the cross hairs on the target compared to 9x. That shows how much less parallax error you get for a given amount of variation in eye placement at lower magnification. Cheek weld still matters but it matters a lot less at low magnification.

——

Great accuracy is possible at just 1x provided the sights and targets allow precise alignment. That's the basis behind front and rear aperture sights.

The front aperture is selected or adjusted to allow just a thin ring of light around the bullseye, and you stop thinning it at the point that ring starts to get dim. That more or less lets the ring of light "pop" a bit when the aperture is perfectly aligned with the light ring is perfectly symmetrical around the bullseye.

The rear aperture is reduced until the image starts to dim and then is backed up a notch until full brightness is restored. This gives maximum resolution with maximum depth of field and minimum area for the eye to center itself in.

How larger that setting is will depend on how much light is available, with more light allowing a smaller aperture. The same is true for the front sight aperture.

The Mark 1 Mod 0 human eyeball can detect differences as small as .005" under ideal light and contrast conditions and that's what aperture sights and black on buff or black on white targets are designed to create.

The only thing that a scope does better is allow you to see small and or low contrast targets at long distances.

Hope that helps…
 
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So, is it safe to say that I can start at 2X (or whatever works for me) and move up in magnification until the target starts to get fuzzy and/or my groups start getting larger, then back off a bit?

Thanks for all the very good replies.

Have a blessed day,

Leon
 
Was just playing with the old Weaver T36 and it has an adjustment for seeing the fine crosshairs and a parallax adjustment from 50 feet to infinity.
When adjusted correctly it is nice for these old eyes indoors or outside.
 

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So if I may ask, what made you want to get rid of the Weaver?
If it was the old 3/4" "slim tube" scope, I loved mine,until the lens
started getting dark or stained and turning yellow.

Would have kept it if I knew that it could have been fixed.

Now I have a fat Tasco on my .22 rifle.
No way am I going to the base and rings, set ups on a little .22 rifle.
 
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