Old K Frame Snub Arrives

[mikepriwer]

I can tell you, with a high degree of certainty, what this gun is. First, it is not a post-WW2 gun; if it were, the serial number would be greater than 811XXX, with an S prefix, which can appear on the butt, or grip frame. 6940XX has a "S" on the grip frame, but this sometimes happens. 6940XX is part of the 1st K-frame serial number series. You should remove the side plate, and confirm the configuration of the hammer safety.

To say this differently, here are the two relevant serial number series for .38 K-frames>
1st series: 1 - 999999
2nd series: V1 - V769000, then VS769001 - VS811119, then S811120 - S999999.
694XXX with no prefix has to be the 1st series, and its shipping information would be recorded in the 1st series shipping records, regardless of when it actually shipped.

Second, the frame, sideplate, and grips were fitted around 1940, and then serial-numbered at that time. One of several things happened after that.

It could have been for an LEO, in which case it would have been completed, finished, and shipped in 1940.

Or, it could have been completed, finished, and then sat on a shelf, in the factory until after the war. The government would not have given the factory permission to ship to a commercial customer, as it was starting to gear up for entry into WW2.

Or, the frame, sideplate and grips could have been put away, and waited until after the war to be completed, blued, and shipped. In 1940, the factory was already back-ordered on commercial 2" .38's.

Finally, the vast majority of these commercial 2" .38's were finally shipped in August, 1946, even though they are pre-WW2 revolvers.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[RKmesa]

I love the little snubbie!!!

A few observations to add to the great info given by Jack, Mike and others above (I know that both Jack and Mike have spent years studying the K-frame M&Ps and I always appreciate their comments and wisdom). Personal observations:

1. The rebound spring stud protruded (a domed bump) on the left side of the frame (just above the grip) on the pre-war guns. On the post-war guns that stud was ground/buffed flush with the side of the frame, which is how the left frame looks on this gun, indicating that it was "finished" after the war.
2. The finish looks to be the post war blue (more of matte finish) also indicating that it was "completed" and shipped after the war.

So I am firmly in the "pre-war parts, post-war shipped" camp. And I look forward to seeing what the letter details.

Just a note of caution on the rebound stud - on most refinished pre-war guns this stud is also polished flat on the left side, indicating a refinish... I do not believe that this gun was refinished.

 

[Buick]

Some additional pics

Took the old urchin outside and tried for some better pics in natural light.

 

[mmck]

These latest photos further support the post war assembly of this revolver. The serial number font on the cylinder and barrel are not the pre-war style.

 

[JP@AK]

It is always good when Mike weighs in on a question. Lots of knowledge and wisdom will issue forth.

the frame, sideplate and grips could have been put away, and waited until after the war to be completed, blued, and shipped.

I tend strongly toward this theory. There seems to be some evidence (clear to me anyway) that this was the case.

Finally, the vast majority of these commercial 2" .38's were finally shipped in August, 1946, even though they are pre-WW2 revolvers.

Correct, with the sole exception of at least 10 units that shipped the next month; in September, 1946.


That said, I do want to offer a correction on this part of Mike's post:

here are the two relevant serial number series for .38 K-frames
1st series: 1 - 999999
2nd series: V1 - V769000, then VS769001 - VS811119, then S811120 - S999999.

then VS769001 - VS811119
This is mythological. In years of research, looking at thousands of early postwar M&P revolvers, I have found absolutely no evidence that there was a series of VS prefix serial numbers. In fact, so far as I can tell only one revolver exists with a VS prefix and it shows evidence of the stamping being a mistake. The sequence mentioned by Mike is all SV numbers with one known error. Even if one or two more show up sometime down the road, it will take more than that to indicate they were purposely so-marked. And there is far too much evidence to the contrary.

 

[Buford57]

At the risk of being rude, was that an on-line auction find? I looked at a similar gun last week and then got distracted. In any event, congratulations on a fine specimen.

 

[LLOYD17]

This one shipped in March 1947. Non-factory refinish and non-original grips. Serial 625818 and it had a post war hammer though I can't say for certain that is came from the factory that way. It still had the pre-war hammer block in the sideplate.

 

[Buick]

At the risk of being rude, was that an on-line auction find? I looked at a similar gun last week and then got distracted. In any event, congratulations on a fine specimen.

Not rude. Yes it was! I try to bid on every half moon front sight revolver that pops up. Sometimes get lucky.

 

[CptCurl]

That hammer is not notched, so the revolver cannot have the sliding bar hammer block safety.

It should have the pre-war tilting hammer block in the sideplate.

I would letter that revolver.

Curl

 

[CptCurl]

The closest thing I have is a 5" M&P, s/n S813907. It appears to be made on a surplus Victory frame, as there is a filled swivel hole. Roy says it shipped in March 1946.

Mine's deep in the safe, but the S prefix tells us without looking that it has the sliding hammer block.

Curl

 

[DWalt]

As I said in #6 above, there is no question that at least the frame was made in 1940 and the gun may have shipped after the war. What happened after that is a matter of conjecture and speculation. A letter will settle the matter of when it was shipped, but if it was indeed shipped after the war, it won't answer the question of whether the pre-war assembled gun sat in inventory during the war and was shipped after the war or if the frame and other components were assembled and shipped after the war. Either way, it doesn't really matter - it's still an uncommon pre-war snubby.

 

[Buick]

I am filling out the letter paper work on this gun and a baby chief now. Also the SWCA application. Thanks everyone for all the great information.

 

[Toyman]

I owned a 2 inch round butt with hard rubber grips. First letter of serial number showed a 5 inch 38/200. Talked to David Carroll and he advised adding a S to serial number and it came back as post was shipped 2 inch round butt with hard rubber grips.
If you can see it there is a small S near where barrel meets frame.

 

[Waveski]

It is most likely just the picture but why does the "Smith & Wesson" not look centered on the barrel?

That's just the way some of them are.

 

[mikepriwer]

Lloyd17

635818 is one of the pre-WW2 serial numbers, that clearly shipped post-WW2. The side plate is definitely pre-WW2, and the serial number stamped on the butt is of the font size used pre-WW2. Very early in the V series, that font size was increased.

Mike Priwer

 

[KSDeputy]

What an amazing revolver, you really made a good buy. According to earlier statements it was made the year I was born, 1946. Don't let it's value slip away.

 

[mikepriwer]

If it was indeed shipped after the war, it won't answer the question of whether the pre-war assembled gun sat in inventory during the war and was shipped after the war or if the frame and other components were assembled and shipped after the war.

DWalt

One of the clues about when it was shipped is the "s" stamped on the grip frame, as we can see on #22 in one of the pictures. A "s" had no meaning, and was not used, pre-WW2 on these guns. Its real meaning is the new hammer block, which hadn't been invented pre-WW2. It's not always present on these late shipped guns, and when present, is not always meaningful ; often the gun still has the original side plate. My money is still on an August 1946 shipping date, like 694101 and 694105.

Regarding your comment as shown above, this has always been the unanswered question. What is noticeable , when comparing pre-WW2 shipped guns vs post-WW2 guns side by side, is the difference in bluing. Post-WW2 bluing is not as deep as pre-WW2 bluing. Caleb Brown noticed this when I showed him 694101, 105, and 106 all together and in the same light; 694106 was shipped in 1940, while the other two were 1946 guns. This suggested that 101 and 105 were finished post-WW2.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[Buick]

Is this the pic

With the "S" stamp? On the right? I'll have to take a second look. It appeared to be a "3" to me, but its not very clearly marked. I'll check it again when i get home. I did try to remove the side plate, but two of the screws resisted my initial efforts. I will try again.

 

[handejector]

As I said in #6 above, there is no question that at least the frame was made in 1940 and the gun may have shipped after the war. What happened after that is a matter of conjecture and speculation. A letter will settle the matter of when it was shipped, but if it was indeed shipped after the war, it won't answer the question of whether the pre-war assembled gun sat in inventory during the war and was shipped after the war or if the frame and other components were assembled and shipped after the war. Either way, it doesn't really matter - it's still an uncommon pre-war snubby.

I don't believe any popular guns, and probably not even any turkeys sat in inventory during the War.
I've see numerous letters to S&W from dealers, distributors, and individuals inquiring about ordering guns during the War, particularly early in the War- 40-41.
We also know that the Brits had agents buying almost anything during the BoB, and some real turkeys got cleaned out of the vaults of several manufacturers. That is why some of the very few Colt SAAs built in 357 Mag turn up with Brit proofs.

So, why would S&W let very saleable guns sit in inventory? The Gov't did not say they could not sell inventory, just that they could not build new guns for civilian sales.
If the Gov't had seen 38 M&Ps sitting in inventory during the War, they would have bought them.

 

[Club Gun Fan]

Took this street urchin in to give a good home. S/N 6940XX. Grips match. Can anyone help with a date of manufacture?

Impossible to tell when it was manufactured. You can only tell when it was shipped. Without a complete serial number, all people can do is guess. That can be off but as much as 5 or 6 years.