Open Carry

[cshoff]

I don't believe open carry does much in the way of crime prevention, but if people want to open carry that's fine. The only OC people I really have an issue with are the ones that go looking for trouble to prove some kind of point.

The type that has to video themselves or have they're friend video them while provoking confrontations with police or others, so they can look cool on there youtube type videos and tell other people that they are defending our rights, when all they are doing is making gun owners look like nutcases. For example, this guy who throws his "open carry" AK over his shoulder to go for a walk to intentionally provoke a response, and gets mad when he gets one.
LiveLeak.com - Guy Open Carrying AK-47 Stopped by police

There are idiots in every bunch. This guy kinda reminds me of some of the stories I've heard about the CCW permit holders whipping out their "CCW Badge" as if it means something. lol.....

OC people don't want to be hassled by cops, but then you have morons like this provoking a response, then complaining when they get it. What would people say if some nutjob was walking down the street with his AK and went and shot their ex,their boss or someone else? People would be screaming about "why didn't anyone talk to the guy when they saw him".

In most open carry states, the mere presence of an openly carried firearm doesn't constitute RAS or Probable Cause, so in a lot of instances, an officer can make an inquiry, but can't compel the person to cooperate, answer questions, show ID, or even stick around and chat. On the other hand, if odd or obnoxious behavior is observed, or if the person is observed doing something unsafe with the gun, then it's a different ballgame.

Or you have people who make a big stink to provoke a response when a store asks them to leave because they don't want them OC'ing in their business, like somehow the OC'ers rights are more important than the store owners. If you don't like a store's policy, vote with your wallet, or write a letter to management and/or the owner.

People can't have it both ways. There are places where OC is normal and accepted, and there are places where OC may be legal,but is far from the norm. If you're going to do it where its not accepted, you are going to get hassled.

I pretty much agree. That said, "hassle" can only be tolerated to the extent that it is lawful. If/when a police officer crosses the line, it definitely becomes a problem.

 

[bk43]

I dare say that free and protected speech offends more people than the lawful exercise of any other right, yet I'd guess that very few here would advocate infringing on that right.

Well let see here. You post making a statement about antis. I follow agreeing with you. Then you post arguing with me about my post where I agree with you. What the hell is that.

Son, are you sure you've got both oars in the water or do you just like to argue?

Bob

 

[cudamank]

wow talk about a lot of reading on this thread. Just a question and mind you its about midnight my time so maybe a little tired. If the general public is so......bothered by open carry, and concealed carry is almost just as fast as open, and gives you the element of surprise, why doesn't law enforcement carry concealed all the time?

 

[Springfeildkid585]

Joe Friday died a long time ago. Don't know about the rest of this country but most of the officers I know have tats, earrings, and dress ultra casual. In fact, they're quite the opposite of the Joe Friday look.

In my neck of the woods they keep their hair buzzed, and casual wear is a t-shirt(tucked in), dark blue jeans, and a ball cap. I've never seen a non-narc with a peircing.

 

[blujax01]

So if a clerk in a store feels strongly about OC and feels it is a deterrent to crime, how does that same clerk feel when a citizen walks into his store proudly sporting a hoodie, sunglasses and a Tech 9 w/ a 30 round mag? Dude may very well be running in for milk and eggs to take home to his family and is just as concerned about crime and deterrents.
All of the cases I've been reading have been submitted by LEO's (badges make a big difference in perception) or people working on private property like a store or gas station, or being out in a cornfield somewhere.
Do any of you who "Open Carry" walk down city streets in this manner? Do you casually saunter into the local Wal*Mart or McDonalds? And I'm talking proudly displayed handguns on your hip - letting the grip of your IWB carry peek out doesn't really count.

I'm seriously curious about this. When I hear "Open Carry" this is the image that comes to mind. I have never ever seen this in my 56 years on this planet and wonder if anyone actually does it.

 

[The Big D]

Huh? Since the majority of LEO's are UNIFORMED, concealed carry as you suggest is simply a ridiculous concept; folks expect them to be armed.

On the other hand, the vast majority of LEO's who work in mufti DO carry concealed. In the organization for which I worked, concealed carry at all times when non-uniformed was mandatory. That meant CONCEALED! Period. Similarly you don't see FBI Special Agents, US Secret Service Special Agents, US Marshals, and other professionals open carrying in the normal course of their duties. That is a fact. Another fact is they do deal with armed bad guys regularly...whilst carrying concealed.

That said, I daresay you would be greatly surprised by the numbers of non-uniformed LEO's who are out and about CCW.

Be safe.

wow talk about a lot of reading on this thread. Just a question and mind you its about midnight my time so maybe a little tired. If the general public is so......bothered by open carry, and concealed carry is almost just as fast as open, and gives you the element of surprise, why doesn't law enforcement carry concealed all the time?

 

[walnutred]

I don't get to C-bus very often but I do see OC in Delaware and Marion, and I've done so myself on occasion. CC is usually more convenient though, at least for me. Last time I OCed in Walmart was when I was sent to pick up the gift certificates for the company Christmas party. Since I had to pick the cards up after dark I didn't want anyone to be tempted by $5,000 in Walmart gift cards and I open carried. It was a non-event; the Walmart manager noticed but didn't comment. Since you're in C-bus you should come to Party in the Park 8 in Powell on July 30th. An open carry event in a public park with food and State level politicians giving speeches explaining why they support CC and OC. You might find it interesting.

 

[FTG-05]

[snip]

Do any of you who "Open Carry" walk down city streets in this manner? Do you casually saunter into the local Wal*Mart or McDonalds? And I'm talking proudly displayed handguns on your hip - letting the grip of your IWB carry peek out doesn't really count.

I'm seriously curious about this. When I hear "Open Carry" this is the image that comes to mind. I have never ever seen this in my 56 years on this planet and wonder if anyone actually does it.

Lots of OC stories here: OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum and here: Alabama Open Carry Community - Index

Huh? Since the majority of LEO's are UNIFORMED, concealed carry as you suggest is simply a ridiculous concept; folks expect them to be armed.

On the other hand, the vast majority of LEO's who work in mufti DO carry concealed. In the organization for which I worked, concealed carry at all times when non-uniformed was mandatory. That meant CONCEALED! Period. Similarly you don't see FBI Special Agents, US Secret Service Special Agents, US Marshals, and other professionals open carrying in the normal course of their duties. That is a fact. Another fact is they do deal with armed bad guys regularly...whilst carrying concealed.

That said, I daresay you would be greatly surprised by the numbers of non-uniformed LEO's who are out and about CCW.

Be safe.

That's not entirely true. I have a neighbor who is a FBI Special Agent, he frequently OCs. In fact, the last time I saw him he was OCing. Plus I've seen, FBI and US Deputy Marshals OCing at a local BBQ place (Greenbriers) here in North Alabama more than once.

 

[ladder13]

Well I thought I was done, now you've called me a liar. Where's the proof? Where did I lie?
Funny how you stick to YOUR opinion(you call facts) repeating IT over and over as if IT was going to get more valid.
See the forest from the trees?
Now PROVE I lied as you assert. No more doubletalk.
No floods, dust bowls, and tornadoes on the east coast either Yeah, things are different.

 

[ladder13]

Huh? Since the majority of LEO's are UNIFORMED, concealed carry as you suggest is simply a ridiculous concept; folks expect them to be armed.
.

Ya think?

 

[blujax01]

... and Marion, and I've done so myself on occasion. ....

Well there ya' go - it is Marion after all! JK, thanks. How did you feel? Nervous? Worried what to say to the Cops if necessary? I don't know how I would react if some old lady screamed: "Ohmygod he's got a gun!" ...immediately making me the center of a lot of unwanted attention.

If someone wants to OC I have no problem with it but I don't cotton to the Evangelical tone some invoke - "You're either going to shout it from the rooftops with us or you're un-American."
I don't go for in-your-face Religion either.

Just one man's opinion ...

 

[walnutred]

The first couple times I open carried I felt self-conscious. However for that matter the first couple times I CCed I also felt self-conscious.

 

[ladder13]

? for the OC fans. If it's so wonderful and is a proven crime deterrent why don't you OC all the time?

 

[hatt]

? for the OC fans. If it's so wonderful and is a proven crime deterrent why don't you OC all the time?

The Republicans and NRA/USF sold us out in FL. That's why.

 

[Engine 21]

I will say I'm not a fan of OC. However, if someone wants to do that by all means have at it. Myself, I am of the opinion that concealed is one element in my favor I'm not willing to give up. I don't get targeted by bad guys, histerical anti-gun crowd, or over zealous new Leos who fell asleep during training.The only reason to carry is to protect yourself or your family from predators that would cause you harm - your defense should come as a surprise to the perps. So, if someone is open carrying and drawing attention to himself that's ok - I'll just quietly blend into the crowd. I don't want to make a statement or have any agenda. As my old Chief use to say "if your off duty- stay off duty, stay concealed unless you really didn't want that day off."

 

[oldman45]

I will say I'm not a fan of OC. However, if someone wants to do that by all means have at it. Myself, I am of the opinion that concealed is one element in my favor I'm not willing to give up. I don't get targeted by bad guys, histerical anti-gun crowd, or over zealous new Leos who fell asleep during training.The only reason to carry is to protect yourself or your family from predators that would cause you harm - your defense should come as a surprise to the perps. So, if someone is open carrying and drawing attention to himself that's ok - I'll just quietly blend into the crowd. I don't want to make a statement or have any agenda. As my old Chief use to say "if your off duty- stay off duty, stay concealed unless you really didn't want that day off."

I was trying to stay out of this for now. BUT........

Just let me know if anyone here has ever been attacked by an anti gunner while open carrying? I have been carrying in all forms for over 40 yrs. I carry daily either for work or while in public. Never had anyone confront me by an anti gunner. I have had people ask about my sidearm, where to shoot, what the laws are, where to get instruction, what caliber I prefer and other things. I consider those questions to be positive. Nor have I ever been attacked by a bad guy and nobody has tried to take my gun.

Anyone here that has even been a victim of attack by perps will say they never had a chance to go for a gun. Shooting a fleeing subject is against the law in most areas. I was serving paper on a guy in a rural area. He came to the door with a shotgun in hand and leveled it at me. Grabbing my gun was the last thing on my mind. All I wanted was off his porch at the time. Putting distance and barriers between us was far more important at the time. The element of suprise is on the side of the perp so do not say concealed carry gives you an edge. If you go for your gun, open carry will produce faster results. If I ever am approcahed by no gooders, I will only draw if I see they are going to try to take my gun. No person can out draw a drawn gun.

 

[ladder13]

Oldman, I respect your experiences and opinions, really, you're thoughtful without hysterics. Do you know how fast someone can close a gap ie: a "perp" is within 15 feet or less of you? The "perp" looks like any guy on the street, it's a nice sunny day and you're checking out the fine ladies out for a stroll. Can you stop the "perp" before they get to you? Maybe he's behind you closing the gap.

 

[oldman45]

Oldman, I respect your experiences and opinions, really, you're thoughtful without hysterics. Do you know how fast someone can close a gap ie: a "perp" is within 15 feet or less of you? The "perp" looks like any guy on the street, it's a nice sunny day and you're checking out the fine ladies out for a stroll. Can you stop the "perp" before they get to you? Maybe he's behind you closing the gap.

First, in answer to your question, YES. Perps do not close the gap by running toward you. They walk up to you like anyone else and turn on you. Perps are stupid but not idiots. They size up the victim by age, size, disabilities and likely if they are armed. Interviewed too many victims and perps. Got their reasoning behind what happened.

Running up behind you will catch your attention but not give you enough time to draw from either concealed or open carry.

Is there a perfect method of carry? None I know of. Is there a method that is best all the time? Again, none I know of. Do I endorse open carry? Yes but I also endorse concealed carry.

There are many things a person can do to reduce the chance of being a victim. Many times people become willing victims by their actions or lack of actions. Walk straight, notice your surroundings, be a good witness in the event something happens but more so, walk like you are full of confidence with head held high. Never show fear or insecurity when walking. Keep car doors locked when driving. Never wait til you are at your car to get your keys ready. Many, many things can be done and I have had many, many people tell me they wished they had done those things in hind sight.

 

[bk43]

The Republicans and NRA/USF sold us out in FL. That's why.

I do hope you will explain this. I live in Florida and have no clue what you are talking about. Thanks!

Bob

 

[cshoff]

Well I thought I was done, now you've called me a liar. Where's the proof? Where did I lie?
Funny how you stick to YOUR opinion(you call facts) repeating IT over and over as if IT was going to get more valid.
See the forest from the trees?
Now PROVE I lied as you assert. No more doubletalk.
No floods, dust bowls, and tornadoes on the east coast either Yeah, things are different.

You DID attempt to use misinformation to support your OPINION. It's already been pointed out several times (and soundly refuted I might add). Or did you forget your earlier statement where you tried to equate openly carried firearms with high crime rates? Then you repeatedly dismissed the FACTS (all of the citations listed in this thread of openly carried firearms being an effective crime deterrent - which YOU asked for) over and over again, as if that would somehow make your assertions more valid.

So if the shoe fits, wear it. And if that hits a little too close to home for you, then I suggest you might think about what you are going to post before you post it in the future. Either way, you're not going to place the responsibility for the content of YOUR posts on me. They are your words, you can own up to them.

 

[walnutred]

Bringing in NY laws into the equation are total BS. In fact, the bashers should do themselves a favor and look up FBI crime stats. The lowest crime rates in the US are in the liberal northeast. Who'd a thunk it? Have fun.

OK, I took your advice. According to the FBI: FBI — Table 2, violent crime is on the rise in the Liberal Northeast and on the decline in the conservative Midwest. So States that are loosening carry laws the last couple years are seeing a decline in violent crime, if you can believe the FBI. Actually according to the FBI violent crime is on the decline EVERYWHERE except your Liberal Northeast. However I'm sure firearms laws in NY, NJ and Mass have nothing to do with this trend.

 

[ladder13]

OK, I took your advice. According to the FBI: FBI — Table 2, violent crime is on the rise in the Liberal Northeast and on the decline in the conservative Midwest. So States that are loosening carry laws the last couple years are seeing a decline in crime, if you can believe the FBI.

On the rise, yes, but still a LONG way to go to catch up to most of the rest of the USA.

Actually the firearm laws have been the same for decades so that dog don't hunt.

I don't need to inform anyone I'm carrying including the police.

 

[cshoff]

? for the OC fans. If it's so wonderful and is a proven crime deterrent why don't you OC all the time?

Several reasons for me. My primary reasons are because an openly carried firearm doesn't work real well with my job. I do a lot of plumbing and electrical work in confined areas (in crawl spaces, attics, under sinks, etc) and a gun in a OWB holster tends to get snagged on things as you try to move around. A concealed gun in a IWB holster, on the other hand, tends to stay tucked in close to the body and doesn't snag so easy. It's easier on me and on the gun/holster. In addition, Missouri does not have open carry preemption, so while the state has no law against open carry, political subdivisions within the state are allowed to enact local ordinances that restrict or prohibit the act, and many of them do. It creates a "patchwork" of areas where a person can and can't lawfully open carry, and it takes time and research to sort it all out (and they can change at any time, without you ever knowing about it).

Furthermore, I prefer not to play the part of open-carry educator. Frankly, I don't have the time or desire when I am out in public to answer questions that people inevitably ask. The close friends I have who open carry, on the other hand, seem to enjoy that aspect of it.

Lastly, I believe the concealed gun generally gives a person more tactical flexibility under the situations a citizen is most likely to encounter. My primary mission is to keep myself and my family safe. I want to try to insure that my first option is to LEAVE an area where something is going down, rather than to be in a position where I am forced to stay and fight. I believe a concealed gun has a slight edge in that regard.

With that said, my wife and I hike Missouri trails quite a bit in the spring and fall, when it's not so hot out. We both open carry exclusively on those trips. When I take my walks along the county roads out here, I open carry. I have a property that I care-take as part of my job, and I generally open carry when I am there. And I always have an exposed sidearm, in addition to my exposed long gun, when I am out hunting.

But I digress, I believe it was oldman45 who stated earlier that, there is no "perfect" way to carry a gun. And he is correct, each method has it's own positive and negative attributes. From a personal safety standpoint, mindset and good avoidance/deescalation skills are probably much more important than just having a gun with you. A gun can be an important part of personal safety, but it requires that person carrying it be able to use it in a efficient, judicious, and prudent manner, REGARDLESS of how it is being carried.

 

[ladder13]

You've claimed open carry somehow leads to higher crime rates.

So which is it...claimed or equate? And please provide a link.
If this is what you're referring to, it's a study based on stats. You like stats don't you?

No "northeast" state in the top 15 at least. I guess these folks have some agenda

Most dangerous states: Crime rankings for 2010

 

[walnutred]

On the rise, yes, but still a LONG way to go to catch up to most of the rest of the USA.

It's nice you have goals though. However looking at Table 5 of the FBIs statistics you will see that states like NY, NJ and Mass all have higher violent crime rates than states like OH, IN and Ky. For some reason the FBI does not seem to agree with you, but I'm sure that will not shake your convictions.

 

[ladder13]

It's nice you have goals though. However looking at Table 5 of the FBIs statistics you will see that states like NY, NJ and Mass all have higher violent crime rates than states like OH, IN and Ky. For some reason the FBI does not seem to agree with you, but I'm sure that will not shake your convictions.

Didn't know Oh, In and Ky were the "rest of the USA". Only 6 States? We can nitpick all we want, I'm retired and have all day.
Wanna talk unemployment too?

Looks like most of your citizens are in jail, maybe that's why crime is down. Congrats.

 

[cshoff]

So which is it...claimed or equate? And please provide a link.
If this is what you're referring to, it's a study based on stats. You like stats don't you?


Most dangerous states: Crime rankings for 2010

It's the same thing. If I equate your "worn tires" with your propensity to "drive like a madman", it is a claim that your driving is the cause of your worn tires.

But it's irrelevant. The study you cited makes no such distinction. It doesn't factor in A) how many people actually open carry in the states where it is legal, B) whether or not the crime rates are higher or lower in areas of those states that may not allow open carry (such as in St. Louis here in MO, which doesn't allow open carry but counts for the majority of crime in the state), C) demographic makeup and socioeconomic conditions, D) unemployment rates, E) population density, and a host of other factors that might have a direct impact on crime rates in any given area. It's simply to broad to draw any conclusions from.

It would be like pointing to a study that showed vehicular accidents had increased in a certain state over the last 10 years, and then saying, "anti lock brakes have failed to reduce vehicular accidents in that state". It's erroneous and fails the logic test right off the bat.

 

[ladder13]

Well let see here. You post making a statement about antis. I follow agreeing with you. Then you post arguing with me about my post where I agree with you. What the hell is that.

Son, are you sure you've got both oars in the water or do you just like to argue?

Bob

That boat has sunk.

 

[cshoff]

Well let see here. You post making a statement about antis. I follow agreeing with you. Then you post arguing with me about my post where I agree with you. What the hell is that.

Son, are you sure you've got both oars in the water or do you just like to argue?

Bob

Reading comprehension may not be your thing. See if you can follow along. I only took issue with one part of your post. You said:

I agree which is why I wonder why the OC carry folks keep trying to rub the anti's nose in it...<snip>

To which I replied:

I'm not sure how they are "rubbing their nose in it". If a person chooses to lawfully open carry, then great. If, however, another person chooses to be offended by it, then that is their problem....<snip>

Of course, you never came back with an answer, only the condescending reply you made above. So I guess it would be appropriate to ask if you can even find the lake with your boat, because my oars seem to be working just fine, thank you.

 

[Engine 21]

Losing sight

I'm sorry if anyone is offended by my opinion but that is all that it is - my opinion. I prefer to carry concealed, others who have for whatever reason prefer to O.C. and that's fine and it's your choice. However, circumstances may dictate in what manner you carry a weapon. If your out hunting, on open land, or making security checks on property (yours or someone elses) I understand the OC. If you are in L.E. and on duty, I understand OC. However, if you are in an urban, suburban enviornment where many people are gathered in more confined area you may want to carry concealed. No, no one has been attacked by the anti-gun crowd but they can make an issue of it and draw unwanted attention to you when you just want to go about your business. Or, they call police from their handy cell phone with the usual "man with a gun" 911 call and now you have to go through all that agrivation - properly concealed eliminates those issues. I know about the zones, 15 feet, 21 feet etc. That really doesn't enter into it in suburban / urban areas because your usually 10 or 12 feet from the next person. Like my old boss said "keep it concealed, unless you didn't want that day off anyway".