Original .357 Magnum Load for Reg. Magnums?

[AJ]

If the question has been asked before I humbly apologize in advance. But my question is: What was the original loading for the .357 Magnum "back in the day"? I would also surmise that, that is what the FBI used then also. Just curious and have to much time on my hands. Also to many slug, powder, primers and casings..........Ya, I know you can never have to many!

 

[MRH]

Interesting question. Powders have changed some; but I am trying to find a duplicate of the bullet that Phil Sharpe designed for it and do the same thing; with 2400 powder.

 

[Muley Gil]

Factory loads made by Winchester and Remington from the '60s and '70s used a soft lead semi-wad cutter bullet. Firing a 50 round box of these cartridges would result in the bore looking like a sewer pipe.

 

[AJ]

Factory loads made by Winchester and Remington from the '60s and '70s used a soft lead semi-wad cutter bullet. Firing a 50 round box of these cartridges would result in the bore looking like a sewer pipe.

Thanks, Jarhead. But I was looking for the loads from the 1930's.

 

[cowboy4evr]

From what I understand , and others may disagree, they used a swc very similar to the 150 gr swc mold sold by RCBS , 38-150 . The powder charge was 15.5 grs of Hercules 2400 . Some say the burn rate for 2400 has changed . I contacted Alliant , they assured me it had not . They couldn't still call it 2400 if changed . Instead it would have to be called 2300 or 2500 , according to Alliant . I hope this helps . Regards Paul

 

[6518John]

Amazing what's on this forum!

"I know in the November 1935 American Rifleman Elmer wrote that with 15.4 grains of 2400 and a 158 grain bullet he duplicated the factory load with a velocity of 1518 fps. I'm sure 2400 is better burning than in those days, and I wouldn't dream of using that listed load AND NEITHER SHOULD ANYONE ELSE! I can tell you that my .38-44 loads in my Outdoorsman are duplicating today's .357 loads and then some in .38 +P cases. "

.357 Magnum Factory Duplication Load

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

From what I understand , and others may disagree, they used a swc very similar to the 150 gr swc mold sold by RCBS , 38-150 . The powder charge was 15.5 grs of Hercules 2400 . Some say the burn rate for 2400 has changed . I contacted Alliant , they assured me it had not . They couldn't still call it 2400 if changed . Instead it would have to be called 2300 or 2500 , according to Alliant . I hope this helps . Regards Paul

You nailed it perfectly!

 

[Muley Gil]

Generally, the powders used by the ammo factories are not the exact powders that handloaders buy from their LGS. In the past, the ammo companies would also use solid test barrels, with no barrel/cylinder gap, when they were developing loads and publishing velocities.

 

[Univibe]

I wonder if these old hot factory loads didn't co ntain a bit of legend? Seems like I was reading that a box of original Norma 10mm 200 grain loads was found a d chronoed, and fell short.

 

[6518John]

In the past, the ammo companies would also use solid test barrels, with no barrel/cylinder gap, when they were developing loads and publishing velocities.

Weren't a lot of those test barrels 10, 12, 14 inches or longer too? I seem to recall reading one of the big ammo companies was reporting information on a handgun cartridge from some ridiculously long barrel—I want to say 20 inches...!!??

 

[rockquarry]

I believe the original .357 Magnum bullet was a 158-160 grain plain base semi-wadcutter cast from a Hensley & Gibbs mould, the #51, as designed by Phil Sharpe. Whether or not there is anyone marketing the original design today, I don't know. I've used a 4-cavity #51 for years. This bullet is also an excellent choice for the .38 Special.

I prefer it over the Elmer Keith-designed #358429 for either .357 Magnum or .38 Special.

 

[alwslate]

I think the high velocities quoted for the early .357 mag loads were what
could be expected from revolvers with 8 3/8" barrels. I think "back in the
day" the .357 mag was promoted as a hunting round for big game. Today
it's supposed to be more of a SD round out of J frame revolvers. Quite a
difference.

 

[Art Doc]

Unless you have a box 1930s ammo and a chronograph you'll never know for certain. I suspect that the load did not change from the 30s to the 60s and I recall as a Youth factory 357 consisted of a 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter (or Kieth type as inspired by Sharpe) at a claimed 1510 fps. May have been an 8" pressure barrel, may have been a long barrel revolver. May have been an estimate. No idea if accurate because I don't have a box of old ammo to test.

 

[Doc44]

In March 1935, D. B. Wesson wrote the new S&W ".357" Magnum has a velocity of 1512 fps and 802 foot pounds of energy using a 158 grain Sharpe-type bullet.

Bill

 

[Biggfoot44]

The original load was also notorious for leading the bbl , which was a strong motivator for serious users to handload using hard cast and/ or gas checks . On the flipside , being so soft , contemporary accounts reported expansion at least some of the time .

IIRC , the stories/ legands were that the factory bullet was closely modeled upon the Sharpe design , as it had shorter bearing surface, hence lower pressure, hence higher velocity for bragging purposes .

 

[AJ]

I may have had the answer in my reloading library all along. I have my Father's copy of Phillip Sharpe's "COMPLETE GUIDE TO HANDLOADING". In the book he writes about his help in developing the .357 Magnum with Col. D.B.Wesson. He states that "Developing the full power load is a major problem. Essentially the factories use a special non-canister grade of Hercules #2400, not available to handloaders. The obvious step is Standard #2400."
I look at his reloading table and it only gives one bullet weight for the #2400 powder and that is a 146 grain. The charge can be from 12 to 16 grains, which gives from 1340 fps to 1655 fps. The chamber pressures are from 21,000 to 35,000.
I guess having, keeping and looking at old reference books can come in handy.
Thanks to all who responded to the thread.

AJ

 

[tjpopkin]

Interesting question. Powders have changed some; but I am trying to find a duplicate of the bullet that Phil Sharpe designed for it and do the same thing; with 2400 powder.

;

MY ACCURACY and stopping power is with 15.0 gr. 2400 and 125gr. hp.

 

[Art Doc]

I know that using 2400 I got to 1725 fps with a 125 jhp clocked from a 5" M27. Lots of muzzle flash. Backed off a bit to 1625 and it was much more civilized.

 

[rockquarry]

I no longer load any magnum handgun cartridge but did for more than forty years. With the H&G #51 and 12 grains #2400 (my favorite .357 load) muzzle velocity was from 1100 to under 1200 fps, depending on which 6" gun I used for chronographing. This was a reasonably accurate load and not unpleasant to shoot.

 

[AJ]

Will be using in a 3.5 inch M27-2. Normally I just shoot special loads. Just wanted to try to duplicate the original .357 Magnum loads.

 

[Muley Gil]

Weren't a lot of those test barrels 10, 12, 14 inches or longer too? I seem to recall reading one of the big ammo companies was reporting information on a handgun cartridge from some ridiculously long barrel—I want to say 20 inches...!!??

Some of the test barrels were longer and non-vented. Some of the reloading manuals, like the old Lyman, lists the firearm used to develop the loads and it is the gun that was used for velocity testing.

"Developing the full power load is a major problem. Essentially the factories use a special non-canister grade of Hercules #2400, not available to handloaders. The obvious step is Standard #2400."

That was the term I was trying to dig out of my feeble memory.

 

[Alk8944]

Some of the test barrels were longer and non-vented. Some of the reloading manuals, like the old Lyman, lists the firearm used to develop the loads and it is the gun that was used for velocity testing.

"Developing the full power load is a major problem. Essentially the factories use a special non-canister grade of Hercules #2400, not available to handloaders. The obvious step is Standard #2400."

That was the term I was trying to dig out of my feeble memory.

If you read the entire chapter and notes from "Sharpe" you will also see that he strongly recommended that the .357 Magnum not be handloaded as it is a high-intensity cartridge and handloading it can be dangerous for those except the most knowledgeable and cautious hobbyists!!! Somewhat of a paraphrase, but essentially exactly what Sharpe said!

 

[rockquarry]

The late Ken Waters mentioned in his May, 1968 PET LOADS article on the .357 that the original loading was a 158 gr. bullet at 1510 fps. Barrel length of test gun was 8 3/8" with pressure in the 40,000 - 41,000 range. Load used 15.3 grs. #2400.

 

[AJ]

Close to what Sharpe wrote.

 

[Warren Sear]

For academic information only, I occasionally load 15.0 grains of 2400 with a 158 grain cast SWC in .357 Magnum cases for use in my N Frame guns. These are absolute maximum loads, in my estimation, and I would not recommend loading them. This load gave the following velocities:

Model 27-2 with 6" barrel; 1435 fps
Model 28-2 with 4" barrel; 1389 fps

My normal load for N Frame revolvers is 14.0 grains of the same powder and bullet. For K Frame guns it is 13.0 grains of the same powder and bullet.

PS. As mentioned above, 2400 is the same now as ever, allowing for normal lot-to-lot variations.

 

[Texas Star]

I can't believe that on this board, no one could answer the original question, literally.

The answer is 1510 FPS, but it was very hot and velocity was fairly soon lowered to 1410 FPS.

And that was what ammo catalogs and the Gun Digest listed during my early life. I think this continued into the 1970's for the basic lead bullet load.

But when Remington made a 158 JSP and JHP about 1963, velocity was stated as 1550, I believe. Certainly, very hot! I initially tried 125 grain loads about 1970 or so, and they were very powerful. I quickly quit using them in my M-19, reserving them for the M-27...if at all!

The 140-145 grain bullets are a good compromise, but for really large animals, I'd stay with 158 grains for added penetration.

In traditional factory ammo, you'll lose 40-50 FPS per inch of barrel below the long eight inch plus one.

And factory ballistics were taken in long pressure barrels. Current figures use a four-inch vented test barrel, giving supposedly more accurate results.

If I get over 1200 FPS with 158 grain bullets from a four-inch barrel, that's all I really expect of a 357. If you need more, go to a .44 Magnum.

 

[Biggfoot44]

And for another Data point , for a " you can tell it's a Magnum, but not stupid hot " load , I liked 13.5gr 2400 .

But I will observe that this is no longer 1935 , and there are other magnum revolver powders today , which can provide higher velocities and/ or lower pressures . Off the top of my head suspects would include Power Pistol, AA9 , 296/ H110 , plus a plethora I haven't used yet .

For more mellow sorta full- ish loads, I have a default go to - Standard weight for calibre cast bullet , 4227 loaded to 95% load density with that particular bullet design . In every cal I tried this, I have consistently gotten at least good accuracy . ie 1.25in @ 25yds , or smaller, frequently sub 1.0in .

 

[DeafSmith]

Would not bother me to use the original loads in my 3 1/2 bbl M27-2.. It would bother me to use it in my 2 1/2 bbl 19-3 (both physically, as in ouch, and emotionally, as it I'm wearing out my gun to fast.)

 

[rubiranch]

AND NEITHER SHOULD ANYONE ELSE!

Why?? Would they damage a M27?

 

[Jim Watson]

If you read the entire chapter and notes from "Sharpe" you will also see that he strongly recommended that the .357 Magnum not be handloaded as it is a high-intensity cartridge and handloading it can be dangerous for those except the most knowledgeable and cautious hobbyists!!! Somewhat of a paraphrase, but essentially exactly what Sharpe said!

Well, EXACTLY what he said was:
"The writer does not recommend the handloading of full charges by the average person and desires to make this clearly known. You are loading far more power than has ever been crammed into a revolver cartridge before, and in so doing you are loading at your own risk. The Hercules Powder Company and Smith & Wesson refuse to recommend the reloading of this particular number because of these strings. It can be done by the careful man, however. But if care was ever needed in the reloading of a revolver cartridge, it most certainly applies to this one."

It is his loads for .38 Special HV that will curl your hair.