OSHA

[jkc]

An outfit I once worked for was inspected by an OSHA rookie who wrote numerous citations for patently preposterous "violations" --- among them, two stand out in my memory. We had purchased a large used forklight and brought it into our shop for a complete overhaul --- it was dismantled down to the chassis, inoperable, just a pile of parts. Our "violation" was not having the orange "slow moving vehicle" triangle affixed. At the time, we had several dozen fire extinguishers sitting on the shop floor, rotated in from the field crews, for scheduled inspection, recharging, etc. Guy wrote us up because all fire extinguishers were not mounted according to regulations (certain height, mounted on red color panel, etc.), despite that we had pointed out that there were more than the required number of properly mounted extinguishers throughout the shop, and these field units were just being stored pending inspection...

A complaint to his superiors made the bogus citations disappear, but, that they were written in the first place was a travesty. Hard to know what the facts and circumstances actually may have been in the referenced shooting range incident. However, David Kopel is an acquaintance of mine, who invariably has his facts and his story straight, and if he thinks an OSHA administrator has it in for shooters and their facilities, I'd say there's almost certainly cause for concern...

 

[McBear]

The list of citations speak for themselves.

If the list of citations appears to you to be so overzealous that it should be assumed the owner must have done something personal to the government to demand such abuse... well... all I can say is that when I read about the antics of agencies like the ATF, OSHA and the EPA, extending them the benefit of the doubt isn't always my first inclination.

I didn't assume. I simply said that was a guess bases on the nits. Since we don't know the history, we can't assume if the nits were warranted or not and since we don't know the interactions of the folks involved we can only speculate. So one incident, for which we have limited information can't really be extrapolated to any or all government agencies. Through working with different contracts over the decades I know a bunch of extremely professional government inspectors in several agencies with honor and ethics well beyond reproach. I know that statistically I can't know all the good ones.

To one of the other ranges that was on the CDC list...when I mentioned this conversation at dinner the question was "How the H*** is that place still open?" So we also have to look at the consideration that the range in Illinois really was that bad to get that much attention.

 

[speedyquad]

here is my thought on OSHA. Very strict for a reason.I work in a print shop. Many chemicals we have are flammable with low flash points. We took it seriously, but not seriously enough. Last October, we had a chemical fire. essentially my foreman, a press operator and a bear of a man, was helping the ink dept mix inks while one of their workers was out on short term disability following a surgery. the use large stand mixers to mic the oil based inks. when they are done with the mixers, the blades need cleaned. they would start dip the blades in a bucket of nova n310, a product used to remove ink from the roller train, that has a flash point of 145 degrees f. the mixer her had used sometimes comes up on it's own. the area he was in also had very little egress as was discussed by many employees when corporate(housed in another state) decided the layout a few months before. the drill moved up and flung the n310 into a uv lamp that was on. the lamp burns at over 1000 degrees. according to the only first hand witness, my foreman was basically reaching for the drill to put it back down when the whole 5 gallon bucket flashed. his clothes melted to him. by the time i knew what was going on, he was already outside and no longer on fire. i knew that even my years of fire training could not help him. and since everyone was out, i was not going to risk my life fighting a chemical fire without proper equipment like the few "heroes" of the day. the next day we were told that he suffered 3rd degree burns over 89% of his body. he was placed in a coma for pain management. had a leg amputated from the knee down within a week. by two weeks he was suffering kidney failure, liver failure and his lungs were weakening. he passed away 28 days after the fire. the doctors had only given him 3 days at most. after 3 weeks, they began doing skin grafts, 1/2 inch at a time, while stretching that good 11% to create new skin for him.
osha was there for 3 days. and had many visits until they levied the fines in april. surprisingly it was only about $35000 and we had 3 weeks to address the issues. if they were corrected, the fines were reduced to a total of 13 grand.

those that worked closely with him and especially those of us that spent time with him outside of work, take these "unnecessary" osha regs. a little more serious now.

Man critical from Franklin packaging plant fire | GoErie.com/Erie Times-News

 

[nipster]

I sometimes think we go way overboard on regulations. Then I take one of my trips to China to inspect manufacturing facilities for products that "regulations ran out of the US". I take a minimum of eight bottles of Visine and when I leave my mucus and expectorate [snot] is black for about a week.

Thank you... I get into arguments all the time with my friends over this exact issue. Most of them are anti-EPA and all of them are pretty much "stick head into sand" about China and say to me with a straight face that something like that would never happen here. I explain to them that, left to their own will, companies would just about over night turn America into China in terms of labor and environmental exploitation.

Some of the stuff the EPA and OSHA may do, may seem overboard, but you can breathe here, and drink the water. Try that in China, India, etc

What good is a job if you die by the time you are 60. Look back to America circa 1870 to 1970 for a glimpse of how bad the environment was. In 1935 there was barely one tree left standing East of the Mississippi due to clearcutting, smoke filled the air, water was polluted, floods occurred with regularity due to improper drainage systems, etc, etc, etc

Superfund sites were everywhere. We still arent done cleaning them up. IE: cleaning up companies messes.

 

[RolandW]

I explain to them that, left to their own will, companies would just about over night turn America into China in terms of labor and environmental exploitation.

That is hogwash. With the level of prosperity that has been attained in America (thanks to capitalism, and in spite of government interference), consumers would never allow a company to survive if it reverted to the 19th Century practices you have described. Competing enterprises would exploit the public's revulsion at these things and the offender would be toast in no time.
Consumers rule in a free market. When you assign the task of regulating to government, corruption is guaranteed, and politically-connected businesses get to write the regulations to benefit themselves, harm their competitors, and keep new sellers out of the market. You will never change this, no matter how many "good people" you vote for or how many more regulations they dream up.

Some of the stuff the EPA and OSHA may do, may seem overboard, but you can breathe here, and drink the water. Try that in China, India, etc

The pollution and abuses you see in those countries exist because their market economies are not as highly developed as those of the West. As prosperity increases, workers and consumers have the means to be more discriminating, and to pressure companies to comply with their wishes for safer products, better working conditions, cleaner air, and so on. Of course although markets in places like China and India are being allowed to grow, I harbor no fantasy that those places are truly free. Their governments, as far as I know, are still quite oppressive. It's just that they've wised up to the fact that if they want there to be wealth that they can exploit, they have to loosen the reins on private enterprise.

Look back to America circa 1870 to 1970 for a glimpse of how bad the environment was.

Yes, and that was the same thing that is now happening in the countries you mentioned above. At the beginning of the period you cite, the market economy in the US was not yet very sophisticated, so conditions look pretty bleak to us now that we have the luxury of hindsight. But I'll bet the people in those days thought they were living in the Garden of Eden compared to previous conditions. Sure, a whole family might have worked in what you would consider a "sweatshop," but at least they didn't have to worry about starving to death because they had one bad harvest. They could go to the store and buy the food they needed with the money they earned from the "evil capitalists." By the time the EPA was forced on us, the market had already given us the luxury of much-improved environmental conditions, and that trend would have continued without the heavy hand of government.

In 1935 there was barely one tree left standing East of the Mississippi due to clearcutting...

Barely one tree left? I hope you are aware of the degree of hyperbole you've employed. Anyhow, owners of private property will not exploit resources to the point of wiping them out altogether. As with your other arguments, this is based on the baloney we're taught in government-controlled schools and by the stenographers for the state who call themselves reporters. It is fantasy to think we need government to tell us what to do with our property. Nobody has more concern for the sustainability of resources than the owner who depends on those resources for his livelihood.

You don't have much confidence in liberty, do you?

 

[nipster]

You don't have much confidence in liberty, do you?

I dont have any confidence in business, left to no controls to do "the right thing" in terms of the environment.

Their track record on the subject is what it is... if you refuse to believe that, you are just ignoring facts for what they are.

Funny thing is, most of the same companies doing all the polluting abroad are the same ones doing it here until the government came and said "no" to them.

 

[RolandW]

I dont have any confidence in business, left to no controls to do "the right thing" in terms of the environment. [Emphasis added by me]

That sums up your main misunderstanding. You think that only government can control business. In a free market, there are always controls on business, but they are imposed by customers voting with their pocketbooks, so they are much more effective. Ticked-off consumers with big mouths can send a company sliding toward bankruptcy in the blink of an eye.
Government controls are always the work of politics, and therefore inherently corrupt. When the feds wanted to regulate lead paint in toys, guess who one of the biggest supporters lobbying in favor of the regulation was: Mattel Toys. The company knew that because of its size it would have no problem absorbing the cost of compliance, but many of its small competitors would be crushed by it. As a bonus, the company could then crow about how much concern it had "for our children."
This happens over and over. The big players in the industry being regulated always have a hand in writing the regulations. The more regulation, the better for them, because they know it will shackle their small competitors and prevent new producers from entering the market.
Well-meaning people who don't understand this keep begging for more government control, which plays right into the hands of the politically connected fat cats whom you love to hate. And of course they are more than happy to pass the cost of compliance, including the non-productive "work" of legions of lawyers, along to you and me.
The proper role for government in this pollution business is to enforce property rights. If a business upstream pollutes the creek that flows through my property, then it has damaged something that belongs to me and government intervention on my behalf would be justified, just as it would be if the company's CEO had thrown a rock through my window. Likewise if it releases microscopic particles of nasty stuff into the air and it drifts over property that you own or rent.
These issues have been addressed many times by libertarian writers, but people who hate economic freedom and trust government coercion just put their hands over their ears and chant, "Business bad; government good!"
The world we live in is imperfect, so there will always be people who harm others, either actively or by neglect. But preemptive regulation by government of business (as contrasted with punishment for property rights violations already committed) only makes things worse.
Oh, and if you give the demagogues in DC your unquestioning support when they force this unconstitutional stuff on us, don't be surprised when they come for your guns.

 

[ditrina]

When I looked at starting an indoor range a bunch of years ago the costs associated with proper ventilation was one of the reasons I did not go through with it. I think it was a bad decision on my part because the initial costs would have been covered over time but...

Indoor ranges put lots of particulates in the air, lead is just one. Lack of proper ventilation is a really good way to get OSHA's attention and with good reason and it has ZERO to do with guns.

Just for information only..

24 lane basic range rated for up to .375 H&H..EQUIPMENT ONLY>>>>Stalls , Trollies.. Backstop, and ONE Master installer

Current cost
$525,000.00 + Labor to install+ assorted Odds and Ends
+ separate UL inspection ONLY ( $4500.00 ) as the range equipment is NOT UL rated.. and if the local building code requires it must be brought up to code and then UL approved ... add another $40,000.00

Correct approved ventilation
EQUIPMENT ONLY>>>>>>> $125,000 Delivered to your door.. Installation is your problem..

This does NOT include the building

Oh wait.. you want air conditioning??

Add $325,000.00.. and all that is, are individual " Vents above the shooters station.."

Remember a range ventilation system is NOT an enclosed system.. It is a Fresh Air in and Mega filtered air out.. THAT MUST MEET ALL STANDARDS..

Oh Yeah.. " Lead-away" mats at the exit doors and " Lead Away Soap" in the rest rooms @ $20.00 a gallon..

I have a headache..

 

[McBear]

That sums up your main misunderstanding. You think that only government can control business. In a free market, there are always controls on business, but they are imposed by customers voting with their pocketbooks, so they are much more effective. Ticked-off consumers with big mouths can send a company sliding toward bankruptcy in the blink of an eye.
Government controls are always the work of politics, and therefore inherently corrupt. When the feds wanted to regulate lead paint in toys, guess who one of the biggest supporters lobbying in favor of the regulation was: Mattel Toys. The company knew that because of its size it would have no problem absorbing the cost of compliance, but many of its small competitors would be crushed by it. As a bonus, the company could then crow about how much concern it had "for our children."
This happens over and over. The big players in the industry being regulated always have a hand in writing the regulations. The more regulation, the better for them, because they know it will shackle their small competitors and prevent new producers from entering the market.
Well-meaning people who don't understand this keep begging for more government control, which plays right into the hands of the politically connected fat cats whom you love to hate. And of course they are more than happy to pass the cost of compliance, including the non-productive "work" of legions of lawyers, along to you and me.
The proper role for government in this pollution business is to enforce property rights. If a business upstream pollutes the creek that flows through my property, then it has damaged something that belongs to me and government intervention on my behalf would be justified, just as it would be if the company's CEO had thrown a rock through my window. Likewise if it releases microscopic particles of nasty stuff into the air and it drifts over property that you own or rent.
These issues have been addressed many times by libertarian writers, but people who hate economic freedom and trust government coercion just put their hands over their ears and chant, "Business bad; government good!"
The world we live in is imperfect, so there will always be people who harm others, either actively or by neglect. But preemptive regulation by government of business (as contrasted with punishment for property rights violations already committed) only makes things worse.
Oh, and if you give the demagogues in DC your unquestioning support when they force this unconstitutional stuff on us, don't be surprised when they come for your guns.

Explain how customers "control" utilities? Or how consumers control how a manufacturer does or does not deal with heavy metals in their manufacturing processes [clean them or dump them in the water table] since most consumers don't see or know the primary or secondary manufacturers.

Consumers have a say at the retail level, very little else. Retail is about 22% of our GDP...the other 77% the consumer has very little input to vote with their pocketbook.

As for your libertarian view of government and things like pollution...could you provide a single example of a successful first world country that uses libertarian economic or government principles.

 

[McBear]

Just for information only..

24 lane basic range rated for up to .375 H&H..EQUIPMENT ONLY>>>>Stalls , Trollies.. Backstop, and ONE Master installer

Current cost
$525,000.00 + Labor to install+ assorted Odds and Ends
+ separate UL inspection ONLY ( $4500.00 ) as the range equipment is NOT UL rated.. and if the local building code requires it must be brought up to code and then UL approved ... add another $40,000.00

Correct approved ventilation
EQUIPMENT ONLY>>>>>>> $125,000 Delivered to your door.. Installation is your problem..

This does NOT include the building

Oh wait.. you want air conditioning??

Add $325,000.00.. and all that is, are individual " Vents above the shooters station.."

Remember a range ventilation system is NOT an enclosed system.. It is a Fresh Air in and Mega filtered air out.. THAT MUST MEET ALL STANDARDS..

Oh Yeah.. " Lead-away" mats at the exit doors and " Lead Away Soap" in the rest rooms @ $20.00 a gallon..

I have a headache..

Who would have thought it would have gone up since I looked 15ish years ago.

That's a lot of range time and ammo sales [especially since many get the ammo at wallyworld].

And I hate to ask. What is liability insurance now. Last time I asked my agent threw a inkpen at me.

 

[RolandW]

Explain how customers "control" utilities?

You're making this too easy for me, McBear
Utilities are among the most heavily government regulated businesses I can think of, and therefore are an example of the kind of government interference you seem to favor, not of a free market, so you are actually reinforcing my argument.
Of course customers don't have any control over electric companies, for example. Those companies have been granted monopolies by government and if anybody tries to compete with them they will be shut down. Open up the market by removing these monopoly grants and competition would give us the best service at the lowest possible price. Consumers would be in control then because if they didn't like the price or service they were getting they could find another supplier. There is no reason why free competition can't work with these "long thin things," as economist Walter Block calls them. Look how much cheaper long-distance rates are now that we have freer competition. Wouldn't you agree that consumers are pretty much in control there now?

Or how consumers control how a manufacturer does or does not deal with heavy metals in their manufacturing processes [clean them or dump them in the water table] since most consumers don't see or know the primary or secondary manufacturers.

This is what I was talking about when I said the proper role of government is to protect property rights. Getting rid of worse-than-useless preemptive regulations would not get rid of laws that say you'll be punished if you damage somebody else's property.

Consumers have a say at the retail level, very little else. Retail is about 22% of our GDP...the other 77% the consumer has very little input to vote with their pocketbook.

I'll take your word that those numbers are accurate. The 77%, then, is business-to-business trade, correct? This is exactly the kind of economic activity that is indicative of a sophisticated division of labor, and which distinguishes primitive economies from advanced ones that create extraordinary prosperity for all. This is a good thing. It's why we have so much wealth compared to places where most all economic activity involves producers selling directly to consumers.
And since consumers are not involved in this 77% of trade, who cares if they "have a say"? All that matters to them is whether they get what they want when they participate in that 22% of the economy, and in those episodes - given a free market, that is - they have lots of choices.

As for your libertarian view of government and things like pollution...could you provide a single example of a successful first world country that uses libertarian economic or government principles.

This is a non-argument. It's like if you said, "As for your libertarian view of government and things like gun control...could you provide a single example of a successful first world country that uses libertarian right-to-bear-arms or government principles."
No, I can't provide an example of a "successful first world country" that sticks to the principles of liberty when it comes to guns. Even our "land of the free" has unconstitutional laws and regulations that keep some of us from having the firearms or accessories that we want. But does that mean we shouldn't continue to stand up for those principles? Does it mean those principles are wrong?

 

[nipster]

Just for information only..

24 lane basic range rated for up to .375 H&H..EQUIPMENT ONLY>>>>Stalls , Trollies.. Backstop, and ONE Master installer

Current cost
$525,000.00 + Labor to install+ assorted Odds and Ends
+ separate UL inspection ONLY ( $4500.00 ) as the range equipment is NOT UL rated.. and if the local building code requires it must be brought up to code and then UL approved ... add another $40,000.00

Correct approved ventilation
EQUIPMENT ONLY>>>>>>> $125,000 Delivered to your door.. Installation is your problem..

This does NOT include the building

Oh wait.. you want air conditioning??

Add $325,000.00.. and all that is, are individual " Vents above the shooters station.."

Remember a range ventilation system is NOT an enclosed system.. It is a Fresh Air in and Mega filtered air out.. THAT MUST MEET ALL STANDARDS..

Oh Yeah.. " Lead-away" mats at the exit doors and " Lead Away Soap" in the rest rooms @ $20.00 a gallon..

I have a headache..

I know 3 local ranges which opened in the last calendar year within 30 minutes of my house which are nowhere near that figure... all of which are indoor air conditioners. None of them have lead mats or special soap.

I see based on your profile you are from Florida, what laws or regs are you referring to? I kind of doubt they just set these up while breaking any law or code.

 

[nipster]

You're making this too easy for me, McBear
Utilities are among the most heavily government regulated businesses I can think of, and therefore are an example of the kind of government interference you seem to favor, not of a free market, so you are actually reinforcing my argument.
Of course customers don't have any control over electric companies, for example. Those companies have been granted monopolies by government and if anybody tries to compete with them they will be shut down. Open up the market by removing these monopoly grants and competition would give us the best service at the lowest possible price. Consumers would be in control then because if they didn't like the price or service they were getting they could find another supplier. There is no reason why free competition can't work with these "long thin things," as economist Walter Block calls them. Look how much cheaper long-distance rates are now that we have freer competition. Wouldn't you agree that consumers are pretty much in control there now?

You didnt answer his question though.

Your long distance example is not a valid one. Long distance toll calls went away due to the introduction of new technology (VOIP mainly, cell phones later).

Furthermore, your Long Distance example, even if technology didnt improve, competition was only possible to the government (court) ordered breakup of AT&T. Companies like Sprint, MCI, etc only existed because the Monopoly was broken due to government regulation.

Utilities in and of themselves are true monopolies. Customers have zero "control" over them, and there is zero competition.

Most of the country has zero competition to their power utility for example, in a lot of cases their phone and cable utility too.

 

[jlrhiner]

I'm sorry, I like my air breathable and my water drinkable.

If that costs a little off the bottom line, I'm ok with that.

I know a little about the power industry, having worked in coal fired power houses for over 30 years (and a couple of nukes). I can tell you as fact, no speculation, fact, that no decision ever made in a power house was done with the environment in mind. It was made purely on profit and loss. Until OSHA and the EPA.

 

[ditrina]

I know 3 local ranges which opened in the last calendar year within 30 minutes of my house which are nowhere near that figure... all of which are indoor air conditioners. None of them have lead mats or special soap.

I see based on your profile you are from Florida, what laws or regs are you referring to? I kind of doubt they just set these up while breaking any law or code.

I have not referred to any laws... The Mats and Lead away soap was suggested by an OSHA inspector asked to evaluate the operation.. ..

The numbers?? are hard contract numbers..

 

[nipster]

I have not referred to any laws... The Mats and Lead away soap was suggested by an OSHA inspector asked to evaluate the operation.. ..

The numbers?? are hard contract numbers..

I guess what I am getting at is, does OSHA have to inspect every new shooting range install? I am guessing no.

 

[nipster]

That sums up your main misunderstanding. You think that only government can control business. In a free market, there are always controls on business, but they are imposed by customers voting with their pocketbooks, so they are much more effective.

I cut the rest out.

It's pretty much bogus.

Customers cannot "vote with their pocketbooks" when there is no alternative.

Go buy power from "that other utility"... oh wait, there is no other utility.

Go buy products made in the USA? No option there.

Consumers have zero knowledge of what goes into a product, where it's made, etc

Consumers have zero knowledge that the product they buy was made by a polluting company, and even if they did, they would continue to because it was a few cents cheaper.

Or... because it was the only one sold at WalMart

I stand by my statements.

The "free market", left by itself will do whatever is necessary to make the most money. Cutting corners on stuff like pollution controls, disposing of chemicals in an environmentally correct method versus dumping it in the river, are complete afterthoughts in a world without regulations.

There is a track record of it. It's right in front of your eyes.

Seriously, I dont know why I continue to even post stuff like this, you all obviously just do not want to recognize it.

 

[ladder13]

There's multiple thousands of options for "Made in the USA" products, you just need to look.

American Made Products and/or Services Made in USA

Made in the USA Products Directory

Home

And, I have multiple options from whom to buy my electricity. Yes, one company owns the plant, but resellers abound.

I read EVERY food label watching what I put in my body.

 

[RolandW]

You didnt answer his question though.

Which question? How do consumers control utilities? I did answer it. Given the current monopolistic system forced on us by government, they can't. In a free market they could.

Your long distance example is not a valid one. Long distance toll calls went away due to the introduction of new technology (VOIP mainly, cell phones later).

It is absolutely valid. Back when I started paying for my own telephone, it cost dollars just to connect and talk for a few seconds to somebody several states away. Now I'm paying 4.5 cents per minute with no minimum when I use our old-fashioned land line. Huge decreases in rates took place long before cell phones and VOIP. Those innovations continued the trend (now I call LD for free), but the big change happened long before that because entrepreneurs were turned loose to compete in pursuit of profit.

Furthermore, your Long Distance example, even if technology didnt improve, competition was only possible to the government (court) ordered breakup of AT&T. Companies like Sprint, MCI, etc only existed because the Monopoly was broken due to government regulation.

That's a great point. But you don't go back far enough in time. Yes, government ordered the breakup of a large company that controlled phone service. But why did it exist in the first place? Because it had used government regulation to keep new sellers out of the market. Heck, you couldn't even buy a telephone in the store at that time; you had to get it from "the phone company."

Utilities in and of themselves are true monopolies. Customers have zero "control" over them, and there is zero competition.

Yes, they are. I have conceded that. But that is true only because if you or I tried to compete with them the government would shut us down. If I started generating power and delivering it to a neighbor who voluntarily paid me for it, I would be in big trouble. If what you're saying is that there is something in the very nature of utilities that makes it impossible to operate as anything but monopolies, think again about the telephone example, and read Walter Block's work on the subject of these "long thin things" that most folks assume must be regulated and monopolized to function properly.

Most of the country has zero competition to their power utility for example, in a lot of cases their phone and cable utility too.

Yep, you're right, and I have written nothing that disagrees with that. I'm old enough to remember the early days of cable TV, and the huge profits that were made by the early providers. In fact I recall one college instructor telling us what a killing companies could make if they got in on the ground floor and lobbied various city councils to give them monopolistic contracts. Some of them are probably still making out like bandits because of those contracts, although thank goodness they have lots of non-cable competition now (see how the market constantly gives us more choices if it's allowed to?). BTW, cable companies are another of those services that I hear constant complaining about. That's par for the course when government interferes.

 

[RolandW]

Customers cannot "vote with their pocketbooks" when there is no alternative.

I answered this.

Go buy power from "that other utility"... oh wait, there is no other utility.

Also answered. Utilities are monopolies only because of government interference.

Go buy products made in the USA? No option there.

That's a huge exaggeration, but a big part of the reason we see so many foreign-manufactured products is the government regulations that have made it difficult for American manufacturers to compete. My cousin has a thriving business designing and selling mountaineering products that he has manufactured in Korea. He told me 20 years ago that there was no way he could get them made in the US and stay in business.

Consumers have zero knowledge of what goes into a product, where it's made, etc

They don't need to. All they care about, or should care about, is whether the product is worth more than their "opportunity cost."

Consumers have zero knowledge that the product they buy was made by a polluting company, and even if they did, they would continue to because it was a few cents cheaper.

I covered this in my reply to McBear. Property rights, property rights, property rights.

Or... because it was the only one sold at WalMart

Yeah, Walmart is evil because it sells decent products at low prices, and provides jobs for lots of people, including many with few skills who might otherwise be unemployed. We can't have that! Shut them down!

Seriously, I dont know why I continue to even post stuff like this, you all obviously just do not want to recognize it.

I'll try to be kind in the face of that somewhat insulting comment. [Edit: I'm very sorry; I misread your comment to say "I don't know why you continue to even post..." My assertion that you had been "insulting" was uncalled for.] The problem is that the only things you "want to recognize" are what we were all taught in government-controlled schools and that we get from mainstream reporters who must suck up to politicians and bureaucrats so they can continue their status as celebrities. Given the internet, there is no excuse nowadays for just swallowing and regurgitating the statist, Keynesian nonsense the government feeds us.
What really puzzles me is that people who I assume bristle at heavy government regulation of private firearms are all in favor of government controlling just about every other aspect of our lives. We all know that gun control doesn't work, right? The bad people who want to do harm will ignore the law, and innocent law-abiding people are the ones whose freedom is curtailed. It's no different with any other preemptive regulation. The bad guys benefit and the rest of us pay.