+P in old Model 36?

[WR Moore]

Just for S&Gs, I went to the Buffalo Bore website. The Outdoorsman load has a claimed velocity of 1250 f/s with a 158 gr bullet. Apparently their idea of a duplication of the old .38-/.44 high speed load. I'm not sure who's blending their powders or which SAAMI maximum pressure they're claiming to meet (there are 3, skipping titles, they're the maximum average pressure that ammunition should be at/below, the sample lot mean [higher] and the YOUR AMMO SHOULD NEVER EXCEED THIS PRESSURE level.), that's in the neighborhood of .357 magnum velocity levels.

While the metallurgy of fire arms has changed somewhat over the decades, the original load was intended for use in heavy frame revolvers. Those being the Colt New Service and the S&W N frames. Others have noted that +P pressures (and above) increase wear. There's another factor here and that's your ability to accurately place shots at that level of recoil.

In short, limited +P use, OK, but recoil is going to increase. The heavy stuff, your choice, I wouldn't. Where you put the bullet is far more important than the other factors. If you want additional power, get a bigger gun.

 

[chief38]

S&W 's answer has been..... if there is a model number stamped on the gun it is safe for +P's. That said, the less +P's go through the gun the longer your revolver will stay tight.

When I carried a M60-7 for EDC I carried Buffalo Bore +P 158 grain SWCHP-GC which were really super hot! I only shot a cylinder full for practice an familiarization once a year - otherwise I'd practice with standard velocity ammo of the same grain weight.

While I do not use that revolver for SD any longer, the revolver is still tight and in perfect condition. I would not shoot more than a cylinder full of such heavy loads a year - but that's just me.

Any S&W that was produced without a model number on it (used to just be called a Chief's Special, Bodyguard, etc. ) I would not push my luck with. I do have some early "Baby Chief's" that have never had any +P's at all through them.

 

[Lobster Picnic]

I would use Buffalo Bore's standard pressure ammo for normal carry. If there's a chance of bears, you could carry the +P. I doubt it will hurt the gun though it might hurt your hand.

 

[FLJoe]

A minor bit of Elmer Keith lore. He once put thousands of .38 Heavy Duty rounds through a Chief's Special over a period of several months. That stuff was loaded at mid-range .357 pressures, 'way more than any +P, and the little gun showed no measurable wear.

Not recommending it, but it's nice to know some numbskull has already risked his own gun and body so I don't have to...

Mr. Keith must have had iron hands. I tried a cylinder full of Underwood's version of the Buffalo Bore the OP is mentioning. It was in my 642 with a wood grip. I have big hands, and I've beat them up a lot over the years, but I feel like they're pretty strong still. I'm not exaggerating when I say I could feel it in the palm of my hand, in the pad below my thumb, for a week. My follow up shots on that one cylinder load were terrible. I'll carry it still if I'm bicycling in the woods and wearing padded cycling gloves, otherwise it's lighter duty ammo for me. At least I know I can hit my target more than once. I'm not sure if the Buffalo Bore is loaded to the same velocity as Underwoods, but that stuff sounded like 357 and felt unlike any other +P I've shot through that little airweight. I know the 36 is steel and a little heavier so it might not be quite as bad.

 

[press-1-for-english]

Very interesting and informative thread. I own a S&W 67-1, 66-1, and 686 no dash. All from the 1980's. All 4" bbls. I use Hornady Critical Defense 110 grain .38 Special in all 3. Standard velocity in the 67 and +P in the 66 & 686. Same +P load for my SP101 snubby. Works for me.

 

[ImDrRich]

There is NO WAY I would shoot +P ammo in my 36 or 60.

 

[Rpg]

I've no particular use for +p 38 special ammo.

I don't think it delivers anything that standard pressure ammo doesn't (except for additional recoil and noise): especially in a 1 7/8" barreled revolver.

As has been suggested, the benefit of +p ammo accrues primarily to the ammo manufacturer, not the shooter.

I've shot some animals with standard and +p38 special (not the same animal) and can't tell a difference in terms of the animal's reaction to being shot.

I certainly wouldn't buy +p 38 special with my money.

 

[Repeater]

I have a 36, no dash and would never use +P ammo in it. I've been told that a few rounds won't hurt, but a steady diet would be detrimental. I figure...Why take the chance? I have other pistols that will take that ammo without issue. Why risk it at all?

 

[bmcgilvray]

I have a Baby Chief's Special here with a serial number of 2018 that shipped in March of 1952. I've shot it with +P 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter ammunition. Shot several cylinders-full for sight verification and familiarization. Nothing happened.

I have a K-Frame Hand Ejector Military & Police .38 Special with a serial number of 50587 (should put it about 1904). I've shot it with +P 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter ammunition. It was doing duty as the 5-inch .38 Special representative in a chronograph test of .38 Special ammunition in all barrel lengths from 2-inch to 8 3/8-inch. It fired 30 rounds of the FBI load from three different factory ammunition batches. It also fired a series of 10 handloaded "+P equivalent" loads using 5. 1 grains of Unique. Nothing happened.

Both are steel-framed revolvers. Neither was discernably looser after the tests. Would they loosen with a steady diet of the +P loads? Perhaps.

In my observations from chronograph tests, either factory 158 grain +P or its handloaded equivalent produce about 50 fps to 75 fps additional velocity from a 2-inch snub .38 Special over standard velocity loads. Is it worth it? The shooter will have to determine that in his own mind.

I have no use for any lightweight .38 Special or .357 Magnum factory loadings.

Excepting for the boutique manufacturers of the heavy +P ammunition, all the mainline "Fedingchester" brands and types of .38 Special +P ammunition, especially those with lightweight bullets do not amount to any more performance than can be provided by the amount of ink it took to print "+P" on the box's end flaps. That bit of ink renders the ammunition more costly though.

I have no use for any .38 Special or .357 Magnum factory loadings with the lightweight bullets currently popular. Those light bullets are best used in inferior cartridges like 9mm Luger and .380 ACP.

I wouldn't shoot Underwood or Buffalo Bore +P through either revolver except if that was all I had available and was experiencing an emergency need.

 

[TJm15.38]

I gave my daughter a 1988-vintage Model 36 "Lady Smith." The Owner's manual said it was rated for +P ammo. I advised against shooting +P in it. I gave her two boxes of standard pressure 158 grain semi-wadcutters. I own a Model 638 that says ".38 S&W Spl+P" on the barrel. I don't shoot +P in the Airweight either.

 

[Pointblank2U]

Shooting with Hobie

 

[MTC(SS)Ret]

I have a 36 no dash 3" circa 1961 production so I have wondered the same thing about +P. Very informative posts from many of you gentleman.
The additional question I have is what factor cylinder heat treating has in all these discussions and when did S&W start doing the heat treating? My 36 does not serve in a self defense role so I have no plans to use +P however I have often wondered what a good SD round would be? I've heard suggestions that run from Hornady Critical Defense to 158 wad cutters.

 

[rockquarry]

I am looking into some Buffalo Bore for defensive ammo for my Chief. I plan to mostly use their low flash standard pressure stuff because my gun is not rated for +P. That being said, I really enjoyed shooting their heavy outdoorsman hard cast in 357 for bear rounds as where I live we have tons of Black Bear. Would shooting a small amount of +P hard cast destroy the gun or I could I get away with shooting 5 every now and again and using it while camping?

I am assuming it would be fine as its a steel revolver and guns only recently started getting +P rating in 1999, but just wanted to do my due dilligence.

Looking at it from a practical perspective... consider getting a half-dozen boxes of 158 grain ammo, some +P, some standard pressure, cast, jacketed, HP, SWC, etc. It's a one-time expense, but you'll know what works best for you in your gun and you'll not have to rely on the opinions of others, some of whom know what they are talking about and some who don't.

Shoot groups with all of the ammos at 15 and 25 yards. Whatever shoots best for you is your best ammo. Also pay attention to things like point of impact vs. point of aim, obnoxious flash, and quick recovery from recoil.

Few mention shooting skill these days but it's important even if it's a lot of work. True skill will make any difference, slight though it might be, between standard pressure loads and +P even smaller. A Model 36 is not the easiest revolver to shoot well. It's among the most difficult to shoot without a lot of practice, but these are accurate guns, even at 25 yards.