Perfected Model No Serial

[dsparker10000]

I have (I'm pretty sure) a Perfected Model. The nickel finish has some issues, but it's mechanically sound. I could only wish to be in this good a condition when I reach 100! The main issue with the gun is the serial number was filed off at some point before 1969 when my dad acquired it. I'd love to know the story behind that! I am sure this affects the value, but I was curious how much? Also, is there any chance the serial could be found somewhere else on the gun? I've only had the grips off so far. Any info and comments would be appreciated!
Top Break
Serial number filed off
38 S&W CTG
6" Barrel
Fixed sights
Strain screw
5 screw (right side plate)

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but your gun is illegal and you will get told that by multitudes of site members. You can't legally sell or transfer it to someone else. The only way you will legally get to possess it is to get BATF to issue a new serial number. Sorry.


Oh, the serial number should be on the rear face of the cylinder and under the barrel latch.

 

[dsparker10000]

Thanks, Wiregrassguy. Better to know now than find out the hard way! I checked the cylinder and those numbers were also removed. I guess whoever did it was careful.

 

[rct269]

Well, if you're in "this good a condition" at an advanced age, you're going to be a lot like me----everything works (more or less)---nothing's really wrong enough to fix---you'll be too fat----have a pretty fair bunch of wrinkles, and you won't have near as much hair as you used too. It'll be pretty much like this gun, where you note the finish "has some issues".

So, all things considered, you could be a lot worse off. The bad news is the value of your gun is based almost entirely on what you can see----the finish----the more the better. Based upon the photos, there's not much left---and none at all on the trigger and hammer (which is going to catch the attention of pretty much anyone who knows anything at all about this stuff-----which is pretty much everybody here).

Bottom Line: Not much finish equals not much value--never mind the serial number. You'll almost certainly find the serial number other than on the butt of the gun, but back to bad news again, the only serial number that counts is the one you don't have---as far as the law is concerned----and you know how those law folks are----picky, picky, picky!!

Ralph Tremaine

And no matter how careful the folks who removed the number were, the folks who made the gun were more careful. So, we've looked on the butt, and we've looked on the cylinder. Let's turn our attention to the barrel. Open the gun, and hold it by the barrel. Raise the barrel latch. Look at the rear of the barrel on the right hand side (rear of the barrel--inside the recess where the latch lives). Good light helps---and a little magnification doesn't hurt. Got it? Great! And if you don't got it, clean out the recess and look again. After you're absolutely sure it's not there, I'll still bet it is, but I'll have a look at the back side of the ejector.

 

[first-model]

... and to add on to Ralph's excellent post, here's a photo of the back of my Perfected, showing where the latch and barrel serial numbers should be located. Note that the barrel serial number is usually split over the two sides of the barrel.

Mike

 

[dsparker10000]

Ralph, Mike,
Thanks for good info. He removed the number from the barrel latch, but the numbers were still on the two sides of the barrel and the back of the ejector. 33492 (the 9 could be an 8).

 

[first-model]

Ralph, Mike,
Thanks for good info. He removed the number from the barrel latch, but the numbers were still on the two sides of the barrel and the back of the ejector. 33492 (the 9 could be an 8).

That would date to the early nine-teens. My Perfected is serial number 368xx and shipped in March of 1914.

Mike

 

[Oyeboteb]

...might also have the serial Number on the inside of the Side Plate.

 

[Jim Watson]

The official BATF legal serial number is the one on the receiver.
The other locations are handy for dating and originality but do not signify to the feds.
So, as said, you could not sell it to a knowledgeable person because it is officially contraband.

Will it be searched out by Beto's Boys? Probably not.

 

[glowe]

Doesn't matter if you find the serial number or not, only the original serial number stamped on the frame is accepted by the BATF. Guy's comments still stand. It is very likely that the gun was stolen at some point in its life and nothing I would want in my collection. Even the act of taking it to the range could result in your arrest if you get stopped by police.

Oh, I know that some will say that guns made before the Gun Control Act of 1968 do not need to have a serial number stamped on the frame, but way too risky to own such a gun, let alone try to sell it. You put your entire collection at risk. No respectable FFL would not touch it and if sold across state lines an FFL is the only legal way to sell a modern handgun, plus most in-state sales now require an FFL transaction for handgun transfers. Strip is down and sell the parts and toss the frame. You will be way ahead financially, since you cannot find parts for this model, and will not get into any trouble with authorities.

 

[Borderboss]

Gary's recommendations to part it out and ditch the skeletonized frame is spot on. With that kind of deliberate defacing of the serial # in multiple locations, it was most certainly stolen. That also means there's a good chance that it was used in a crime. I would not want to have a barrel in my collection that could possibly trace back to a crime in a ballistics check, even with all the decades that have gone by.

When you part it out, keep everything but the actual frame. That means the side plate, the screws, etc. All of it has value.

 

[gmborkovic]

John has good advice. Guys, its an old out dated caliber. not even
chambered for guns today.

 

[dsparker10000]

Thanks, everyone for the good advice. I had no idea. It sort of breaks my heart, but at least it will be fun to strip it down and see the inner works. And I don't have a particular sentimental attachment to this one.
David

 

[steelslaver]

If it was made before 1968 and never had a serial number from manufacture like 2 22 rifles I own it it legal to own and transfer. FFL just puts none or NA in that line on the form. BUT, it it was made before 1968 and did have a serial number, it is illegal to own, even if it was removed prior to 1968. Ah, but prior to 1968 it was legal to relocate the serial number and even for some time after 1968 Gunsmiths were allowed to relocate the serial number. And yes, I emailed a BATF guy on this. Relocating serial number is no longer allowed. How they tell when the number was relocated is beyond me.

But, you could contact the BATF about obtaining permission to have the gun assigned a new serial number.


But, then it will never be worth anything but for shooter value or parts so not worth much trouble.

By the way in Montana if a LEO asked me to see my gun or its serial number and I had not been accused of any crime I could tell him to go pound sand. He is no more allowed to search it any more than he can demand to look inside my wallet or the trunk or glove compartment of my car. Warrant please. Still believe in the 4th and 5th amendments here. No violations in open view, on closer looks. Even during hunting season here you can still drive around with a loaded rifle in your rig to. Thats called the right to keep and bear arms. 2nd amendment. A game warden would get laughed at for even asking.

 

[Seamus O'Caiside]

Guys, its an old out dated caliber. not even chambered for guns today.

That is true, but commercially made ammo is still available.

 

[BMur]

Nice gun

The one thing California did right recently is to make it a felony for firearms theft no matter what the value.

Any and all “altered” no serial number guns Here would get you a one way ticket to a cell block.

Oh, and there is a serial number on this gun. I guarantee the likely thief did not remove the number on the base pin.

So assuming the gun is stolen and assuming the poor guy filed a police report? That number would be enough to prove the gun is stolen.

So, honestly? And in the real world? The gun doesn’t belong to you! It’s stolen. It belongs to someone else who had the gun taken from them!

Murph

 

[steelslaver]

His dad acquired it in 1969. If it was stolen in 1969 and the owner was actual owner was only 21, he would be 72 now. The police report would have been on paper and possibly never entered into a computer. IF theft was prior to 68 and that likely itt would probably never been reported to the feds. May not have known the serial number etc. Very likely first sold well before GCA 68 so doubtful it there is any record of original sale.
Chances of finding out who what or where are remote.

I am not stating the gun is legal, that it is a good idea to keep it or anything just thinking out loud about it

 

[BMur]

honest opinion

I'm certainly not passing any judgement. The real world isn't Disneyland. Flea Markets are full of stolen items so you can't fix every wrong doing. I just feel for the owner is all. This gun to me, just my gut feeling is that it has family history to it. Not your typical standard Smith & Wesson self defense piece. If it was mine, I'd want it back. We can all relate to a "Grandfather's" gun, etc. Family history is often about inanimate objects that bring back strong family memories.

Going back to the Bonnie & Clyde example? One of the revolvers that Clyde stole had the serial number removed, obviously by him or one of the gang members. The owner of the gun filled out a police report in the early 1930's that included the original serial number and they were able to return it to him believe it or not from other details of the report. So, who knows.

Interesting tid bit....When the gun was sold at auction a few years ago along with another of the Bonnie and Clyde gang guns? The ATF allowed them to stamp another serial number on the gun prior to the auction so it could be sold legally due to "Historical Significance". I think that lot sold for about $500k.

Murph

 

[steelslaver]

Well, here is what I did. I wrote the BATF this email.

Will reprint any reply or let you know if they came to the door and talk to the wife, an attorney

as follows

I am active on a gun forum and about once a month someone shows up asking questions about a gun that has had the serial number removed. Usually an older gun that the got through a family member who passed, but in some cases they purchased it. Mostly they are ignorant and unaware that the gun needs the original serial number. They are always advised that such a gun is illegal to own. But, there have been a couple instances where some one has advised that they went to your agency. Usually though a law enforcement contact, and where able to stamp a new number on the gun. I myself saw a gun with a marked over serial number and was advised that it had been done by the local sheriffs office.



My question is this possible and if so just what is the procedure to follow?



And no, I don’t own such a gun myself. Have never figured any I have know of to be worth the time, effort or possible trouble.

Thank you

 

[JSR III]

First of all I would ask this learned group, how many times have you driven to the range and been stopped by law enforcement and had your firearms checked for serial number?

Let's take an informal poll. If you have ever been stopped and had this happen, please state the date and why you were stopped. Were your guns checked for serial numbers? Did this evolve into a summons or a court date?

I for one have been a licensed gun owner for almost 50 years now. I have many range trips logged, I have fished for most of those years and hunted for most of those years. To date, I have NEVER been stopped by a law enforcement officer, a game warden, the FBI, the BATF, the DEA, the CIA or any other letter agency that you can think of and had my guns looked at or serial numbers checked. Never even seen one close up in all those years.

I understand the law about serial numbers but I think that many times this issue gets blown way out of proportion.

Also, just because a gun has had the serial number removed, it does not mean that the gun was stolen. The only thing that can be said with certainty is that the serial number has been removed. Period. Personally, I would not worry about it nor would I be afraid to take it to the range.

Cancer I worry about, nuclear war I worry about, reinstatement of the assault weapons ban I worry about, this, not so much.