Perma-Gel test results

Flop-Shank, thanks for your time and dedication for this information. Your results with the Speer 135gr+P Short Barrel load is the second post I've seen where this load failed to expand after encountering denim. The first time I read about this load failing is here What is the scoop on Hornady's new handgun ammo with the plastic in the hollow point. - Page 2 - M4Carbine.net Forums
be sure to scroll down the page for the re-test results.

One of the local stores here finally got this ammo in stock, I picked a aouple of boxes for just in case since I can;t find the Rem "FBI" load. Then I read the above post a dy or two ago and now this one. I'm not so sure I want to use this for CCW purposes at this pont. I can't wait to see your results with the Hornady load, Mr. Camp had good things to say about not long ago. Thanks again.
 
336, you're most welcome. I'm glad to share. Thank you for posting that link. I'll read it tomorrow as I need to hit the sack here pretty quickly.

As far as Speer SB goes, the internet buzz I'm catching is that failure to expand hasn't been a real issue on the street. If any of you LEOs out there in cyber-space are seeing failures with the Speer SB load, please let us know.

A shooting friend gave me two rounds of Hornady CD. I have it tested and documented, but I forgot to ask if it was std. pressure, or +P. Once I get that info, I'll post. I will say that based on what I've seen, I would look for DPX. I like it more than Critical Defense. All things being equal, DPX should be better against auto glass. CD is not bonded.
 
You're welcome, ddixie
336A said:
Then I read the above post a day or two ago and now this one. I'm not so sure I want to use this for CCW purposes at this point.
Click to expand...
336, I thought about what you said above and also the information in the link you posted. Two things immediately come to mind. The first is that the .38+P, not unlike the .380, really is a marginal caliber. It operates too close to it's expansion threshold for my comfort. I've circumvented the problem by using .357s in my snubs. I use Speer SB .357s in my 360 PD. I do not use or carry .38 spl. ammo. I can, and am willing to pay the price in recoil. YMMV

The second thing that has become painfully obvious is that big ammo is putting out inconsistent crap nowdays. I've had defective ammo in the last couple of years from Speer, Remington, Buffalo Bore and Hornady. QC is in the toilet. The saddest thing is that I don't buy a whole lot of factory ammo. I don't think the road I'm taking is right for everyone, but as I use up my stock of factory ammo, I'm going to use handloads for everything. I make better ammo than they do. Once again, YMMV
 
How about a test of Corbon DPX .380? I've given them more consideration since I brought them up a while back, but still haven't found any terminal ballistics from the current loading. I would gladly supply a few rounds.
 
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Hornady Critical Defense

Hornady Critical Defense .38 spl. std. pressure 110 gr. (90310)/S&W 360 PD 1 7/8"

Round #1, bare P-G, 13 1/2" pen., .436 avg. rec. dia.

Round #2, 4 layer denim/P-G, 17"+ (exited block), no expansion.

No fragmentation noted from either bullet. Round #2 was still cruising pretty good when it exited the block as evidenced by the severe flattening on one side of the bullet after impact with my fiberglass backstop.

Certainly this is a viable option in std. pressure .38 along with the Federal 125 gr. Nyclad and various maker's wadcutters.
 
Corbon DPX and Rem. Golden Sabre results

You're most welcome, guys.

That said, I want to extend a .500 S&W-size thank you to BigRich315. He donated the ammo for this test, and the one to follow, to the tune of twelve rounds of premium defensive ammo (all .380. three rounds ea. of Double Tap, Magtech, Corbon and Remington), plus shipping. I'm very appreciative. I likely would have spent the money eventually and many, including cops, will benefit from his generousity. :)

Corbon .380 80 gr. DPX (DPX38080-20)/Kel-tec P3AT
Round#1, bare P-G, 9 5/8" pen., .468" avg. rec. dia.
Round#2, 4 layer denim P-G, 8 3/8" pen., .573" avg. rec. dia.
The avg. rec. diameters are worthy of note. I get them by measuring the width of the bullet by measuring the widest and narrowest distance across the expanded bullet, then averaging the two. In this case and round #1 for the Golden Sabre listed below, that creates a somewhat blurred picture, IMO. Round#1 expanded, but only three of the six petals popped open. Three petals on one side of the bullet are still fused together. Round#2 did better five of six petals opened. That says something for DPX that it actually expanded better through heavy cloth. :confused:

Remington .380 102 gr. Golden Sabre BJHP (GS380B)/Kel-tec P3AT
Round#1, bare P-G, 13 3/4" pen., .417 avg. rec. dia. Two of six petals opened.
Round#2, 4 layer denim/P-G, 16 1/2" pen., no expansion.
This is a classic example of a heavy for caliber bullet from a slow, low pressure cartridge and a short barrel struggling to expand.

Conclusions; well, here we see two of the more highly regarded .380 loads working their *** off like "the little engine that could" and proving that .380 is a pretty crappy caliber. The best and brightest engineers struggle to make mediocre loads. The lousy ones blow chunks. Of the two I like the Golden Sabre (I'll stick with Gold Dots however), in deference to my friend from New Mexico who is a big advocate of penetration. ;) Neither is a bad load, after all it's a .380. Don't carry one as a primary if you have a choice!!!!!!

Coming soon, Magtech and Double tap!!!!! :p
 
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First, I'm more than happy to contribute and do my part to increase the usefulness and knowledge of the forum (for a change :rolleyes:, especially when it gives me the answers I want and saves me the price of a block of Perma-Gel;)). Thank you again, Flop-shank, for taking the time and effort of performing this test and all those in this very useful and knowledgeable thread.

These results support what we've seen from these loads elsewhere, but I had hoped the DPX had been improved. Even though I'd like to see another 2" of penetration from the DPX you have to like that kind of expansion. IF the Golden Sabers expand I would think they would be fairly effective; perhaps from a longer barrel, but then you get into the realm where a 9mm is more logical. I think I'll hold onto the DPX and "dispose" of the rest of the GS appropriately.:D

I'll keep the Gold Dots loaded for now, and I'm looking forward to seeing the Double Tap results, they are very accurate out of my P3AT, even unusually so, and seem to have alot of power (not as bad as the Buffalo Bore). They are a bit of a handfull though.
 
BigRich315 said:
I think I'll hold onto the DPX and "dispose" of the rest of the GS appropriately.:D
Click to expand...
My friend, never burn premium ammo as range ammo. Save it for reference (example; a you or a friend may want to see what's more accurate/reliable in his gun). It will save money later. Push come to shove, you can always burn it later. It goes a little deep, but that GS isn't the worst overpenetrator (well maybe it is in .380 for a JHP, LOL) and it does have weight (momentum) on it's side.

Rich, I'm glad the Double Taps didn't beat the crap out of your P3AT. I've wondered about that. How many have you fired?
 
I ran a few mags through when I was testing different SD rounds, 21 rounds total (I have the +1 extension). I took a close look when I got it home and found no evidence of damage like you did from BB. Gold Dot shot well also and your penetration numbers are great so I figured why punish the gun with DT if GD does the job.

And you have a point about burning through good ammo. They were freebies but that's still no excuse. A buddy plans on getting a Walther PK380 soon so I'll save them for him. Out of the longer barrel they should perform pretty well, and one of these days I'll invest in that block of P-G to find out. Heck, he might even go in for half.
 
I have very strong opinions regarding P-G. The first is that I doubt Dr. Amick is selling a ton of it and if people don't buy the stuff it might go away. The second is that it's an irreplaceable ammo testing tool every bit as important as a chronograph. The third is that it is what hobbyist have needed; ballistic gelatin that doesn't need to take up valuable fridge space. My block must have been sitting ready to go for six months before I resumed testing recently. It's ready when you are and as long as it's close to room temp., it's good to go. It's available from Midway USA exclusively, last time I looked. The Midway reviews are very informative.
 
BigRich315 said:
Gold Dot shot well also and your penetration numbers are great so I figured why punish the gun with DT if GD does the job.
Click to expand...

I'm answering my own question again with that, aren't I...:o Even if Double Tap performs well, Gold Dot still gets the nod. I guess it's still good to know for sure though, and to have a better second choice.
 
.44 mags., 210 Silvertip, Fed. 180 JHP, Rem. 240 SJHP

Winchester .44 mag. 210 gr. Silvertip (X44MS)/5" S&W 629
Round#1, bare P-G, 12 3/4" pen., .808" avg. rec. dia.
One 1.7 gr. fragment penetrated to 13 1/2" right ahead of the bullet. Several small and two large fragments are observed in and approximal to the main wound track.
Round#2, 4 layer denim/P-G, 17"+ pen., .740 avg. rec. dia.
This bullet showed moderate flattening of it's nose due to it's impact with my fiberglass backstop after passing through the gel block. One large fragment is recovered at ~ 8" depth approximal to the main wound track it created it's own path of about 1 1/2" length.
Federal .44 mag. 180 gr. JHP (C44B)/5" S&W 629
Round#1, bare P-G, 13" pen., .681 avg. rec. dia. One 13.2 gr. fragment diverged from the main wound channel upon entry and created it's own secondary channel to a depth of 4 1/2". Two large fragments were also recovered from the main wound channel.
Round#2, 4 layer denim/P-G, 10" pen. .853 avg. rec. dia.
It was awe inspiring seeing over 900 fpe. stopped in only 10" from a handgun!!! The expansion of the block was violent enough to shear the drywall screws and split the 2x4s that my table is made from. Who ever said that the .44 magnum is an overpenetrator? It certainly doesn't have to be. This is the go-to load for the few seeking a full power factory .44 magnum load for self defense, IMO.
Remington .44 mag. 240 gr. SJHP (R44MG3)/5" S&W 629
Round#1, bare P-G, 17"+ pen. .753 avg. rec. dia.
This bullet was nowhere near spent when it hit the backstop. It knocked a big divot of fiberglass off from the back and would have penetrated several inches more P-G had it been present. The bullet nose was severely flattened by the impact and would have affected the above listed avg. rec. diameter. There were six secondary fragments radiating out into a 2" diameter area 3 3/4" deep from the initial entry. Their avg. weight is 7.13 grains. Two fragment were removed from or adjacent to the main wound channel. Their avg. weight is 3.7 grains. The impact on the gel block was, like the Federal load listed above, pretty ferocious. I did not test this load through heavy cloth since round #1 revealed that it obviously was an overpenetrator for self defense purposes and animals don't wear clothing. This would be a good one for deer.
 
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Fed. 180gr JHP, WOW!!!:eek:

Now there's a man-stopper if I've ever seen one! That kind of energy dissipation in such a short distance has to be devastating.
 
.380 Magtech First Defense and Double Tap Cont. Exp.

First, I would like to, once again, thank BigRich315 for providing the ammo in this test. Thanks to Rich, I think that we've now covered all, or at least most of, the serious top contenders in this caliber (excepting FMJ).

Magtech .380 First Defense 77 gr. SCHP (FD380A)/Kel-tec P3AT
Round#1, bare P-G, 12" pen.
Round#2, 4 layer denim P-G, 12 1/2" pen.
Double Tap .380 95 gr. Controlled Expansion JHP/Kel-tec P3AT
Round#1, bare P-G, 13 1/2" pen.
Round#2, 4 layer denim P-G, 15 1/2" pen.
The hollowpoints of all four bullets in this test flared open slightly, but did not exceeed the diameter of the bullet base.

IMO, the Controlled Expansion JHP is aptly named. ;)
Once again, two decent .380 loads perform marginally. That's an achievement in the wimpy .380!

FWIW, folks, I have a Corbon .44 magnum 165 gr. JHP test in the works. It may take awhile, but I will post the results when they are complete.
 
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Today I fired the last 4 .380 rounds as well Speer and Hornady Critical defense for accuracy. They all performed pretty well. Now with solid numbers of many top competitors, I can safely say Speer Gold Dot is the best choice. I do wish DPX performed better though: it was the most accurate and was the softest shooter by far. I'm glad we could help put some concerns to rest!

Keeping in mind that a P3AT is by no means a primary weapon (if you can avoid it), I feel alot better now carring it.

Just curious, what did you thnk of the recoil from the Double Tap?
 
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