Pictures of a 38/44 HD with strange serial number

[mikepriwer]

I was asked to post these pictures -

I suspect we will have an explanation forthcoming .

This serial number is strange - seems to be missing the "S" prefix - I think.

Later, Mike Priwer

 

[mikepriwer]

I was asked to post these pictures -

I suspect we will have an explanation forthcoming .

This serial number is strange - seems to be missing the "S" prefix - I think.

Later, Mike Priwer

 

[dkbutler1958]

This is the original post I made on Dec. 19, 2007. I was asked for photos and did not know how to attach them so Mike said to send them to him and he would post.

I have inherited a Smith & Wesson 38 Special that has 38 S & W Special CTG on one side of the barrel and on top of the barrel is listed 3 patent dates of Feb 1906, Sep. 1909 & Dec. 1914. The serial number on the butt end of the gun is 65068 and the cyclinder shows 450C8. It has a fixed notched sight. I know it was manufactured after the Dec. 1914 patent date, but the serial number is not one I have seen relative to this type of pistol and the searches I have made. Anyone have any clarity as to what year of mfg. and worth? I was told it originally belonged to an Illinois State Trooper that sold it to my Grandfather.

Here is Mike's original reply:

DK

Well, without a picture you have me guessing.

The 450C8 is not a factory number of any kind. They never used letters.

The real question is - what have you got here, and by that I mean, is it a K frame
or an N-frame ? Or, is it something else .

If its a K-frame, the serial number of 65068 is not compatible with the patent dates
on the barrel. 65068 would be about 1906 . If its a K frame, with a 1914 patent
date, then the serial number should be 6 digits, not 5.

If its an N-frame, then 65068 is a post-WW2 serial number, and should have an "S"
prefix somewhere to the left of the serial number. This would be about a 1946 date.

A couple of question: how old was your grandfather when he got the gun - roughly ?
And, does the extractor rod hang free below the barrel, and is captured at its end by
the extractor lug, OR does the extractor rod reside in a housing that extends below
the barrel ?

Later, Mike Priwer

 

[smith17]

I would say the same thing Lee said on the original post. My money rides on the cylinder "number" being misread due to being filled with crud. I think it was Glypnir who had the same problem earlier with his wife's RM.

Sorry Ian, I couldn't resist.
Is there a number inside the ejector shroud?
It seems there has been discussion here before regarding some immediate post war guns missing the S prefix.
Ed

 

[1Aspenhill]

DK,
this is very interesting. there are several things that are not according to the norm. I think we need some more info from you. First, pull the grips and see if there are any rework marks on the left side. There may be a 3 or 4 digit date code there plus other info. Judging by looking at the picture of the sideplate, the gun appears to have been refinished. With that said, it could account for what happened to the "S" of the serial number. Pre war serial numbers for N frame guns ended in the mid 62000 range.
The next thing that is out of place is the logo stamp on the left side. S&W moved this to the sideplate in about 1936 and the post war transition guns which I believe yours is had the logo on the sideplate.
The barrels used on the early 5 and 6.5" transition guns had the address and patent date roll marks on the top of the barrel like the pre war guns did. When the large knob on the ejector was changed to one of the same diameter of the ejector rod, the stamping of the top of the barrel was stopped.
The transition guns frame was basically the same as the pre war and is why the service grips fit it so well. Check the right grip panel to see if there is a serial number stamped on it. The correct grips for that gun should be post war "high horned" magnas.
Perhaps the serial number on the cylinder was polished off and was restamped incorrectly as the "C" could be a "6" that has been polished/faded over time. 4's and 6's are too far different to be anything but what they are and it could be a mistake and no one noticed at the time to have it fixed.
The other place to look is in the ejector rod housing in the barrel. You may find a "B" for blue and an "S"65068.
If you take the cylinder and yoke out of the gun, look on the flat of the yoke that faces the front of the cylinder and see what the number is stamped there.
Next, are the rear of the hammer and trigger marked at all? Pre war hammers and triggers have "Pat US Off" (close to that, I don't have one at hand to check).
All in all, very interesting but I would bet it is a post war gun and the serial number is S65068. Additionally, I know of a post war HD that has a "C" instead of a "S" in front of the serial number-quality control did not catch that one!
I hope this helps in trying to solve the mystery.
Bill

 

[bettis1]

DK,
It will be interesting to see if there are any marks under the grips. However, I strongly doubt that is a factory finish that it is wearing now. Even if we can attribute the "plumb" color to the photograph, we can't explain the pulled screw holes and rounded frame edges as other than a non-factory polish job.

The grips are very nice prewar ones and worth a considerable amount.

Bob

 

[mikepriwer]

Keith

Now I remember !

Bill has recommended the next steps for you. Hopefully there will be
something inside the extractor housing. Just open the cylinder, and take
a good look in that cavity that houses the extractor rod. Whatever number
is in there, is what we are looking for.

The gun is refinished, but that is neithere here nor there. This gun
is a 38/44 heavy duty - the only question is - when was it made. That is
what we need the serial number for.

Bob & Bill - I checked the files on Joes website . The post-WW2 N-frames
all start at S62xxx, and there are no serial numbers without the S . The
butt of this gun, from the pictures, looks to have been worked over - maybe
when it was refinished someone polised off the S - particularly if it was
lightly stamped.

That number on the rear face of the cylinder is confusing - maybe its
been replaced.

So - the saga now continues !

Later, Mike Priwer

 

[1Aspenhill]

Mike,
I agree that it seems to be a post war transition HD and the "S" on the butt had been polished off. The real puzzle to me is the logo stamped on the left side. Maybe the real answer is the factory found an old frame that had not been serial numbered but had the logo stamped in it and never assembled. As S&W never threw anything away, they used the frame and assembled the gun after the war. I think the serial numbers on the rear of the cylinder had been buffed off and in an attempt to put them back on, the gunsmith made a mistake in the number and figured the customer would not catch it and let it go.
It will be interesting to review the addtional info we will receive from the owner.
Thanks,
Bill

 

[glypnir]

I opt for the Mike Priwer "barrels and barrels of frames" theory.

In my application of this, it explains everything perfectly.

Smith built thousands of frames and serialized them. Someone opened one of the newer barrels, the one with the 65xxxs in it. Before WWII. They built one, maybe a whole barrel full. Then they went back to the older barrels. Just to confuse the heck out of us, of course.

Anybody like my theory?

Why did they put them in barrels anyway? Was there a forging stress relief issue like the casting stress relief issue with castings? Do the forgings need some "barrel age"?

Letter it, Letter it, Letter it.

I'm not embarassed about misreading the number on our Registered Magnum. It was the Registration number, not the serial number. It actually had some bit of corrosion or flashing or something in the bottom that made it look a bit like a 6. Putting some nice reflective gun oil in there made it clear what it really was.

And the letter made it clear which one was right. Especially the first letter, which was not correct.

 

[DWFAN]

I'm no expert on this but the profile of the butt to the grips does not suggest over buffing so as to remove the "S". If you look closely the butt is even to the grips.
DW

 

[mikepriwer]

G

The shipping records are actually pre-printed bound ledgers. They have been
pre-printed with the serial numbers. When a gun was shipped, they would find that
pre-printed serial number, in the appropriate book, and then fill in the rest of
the line with the date, name, and address.

I don't know how far ahead that particular book was pre-printed. Presumably, after
the war, when they started using S prefixes on the frames, either they were able to use
the same book and manually add an S to each entry, or they had another sets of books
printed up.

What I'm getting at is - what would have happened if they made up some guns with
serial numbers that exceeded the pre-printing in the books ?

Maybe the way to letter this gun is to give Roy two serial numbers - one without the
S and one with the S, and ask if he thinks they are the same gun .

Or - maybe DK will find an S inside the extractor housing, or even on the flat of
the yoke .

DW - Maybe that is another question to ask the owner. Do the grips fit really well on the bottom of the butt,
or does it look like the bottom of the grips overhang the butt by some small amount ? In the first picture,
it looks to me as though the rear portion of the butt is a bit lower than the rear half of the right grip panel.


Later, Mike Priwer

 

[chillypepper]

could this be an early custome built off a 1917 comercial?

 

[DWFAN]

I'm not convinced Mike and that dosen't make me right either. Even the lightest strike would suggest some indication of a stamp. I make my case with the first and last picture. The second picture is too vague.
DW

 

[GLL]

Would anyone accept 35068 as the serial number ?

That would make it VERY early though !

Jerry

 

[mikepriwer]

Jerry

I don't think its a 3, but, I will say that the first 6 looks different from the other
6. Its remotely possible that the first 6 is an overstamp of a 4 -but I think we
are going down the wrong path.

He needs to report back what serial number is inside the extractor housing, and
perhaps also on the flat of the yoke. Neither of those should have been buffed out
in the refinish - they are in well-protected areas.

I did take him 6 weeks to get these pictures to me, so we may be in for a long wait here,
as well !

Later, Mike Priwer

 

[Art Doc]

For what it's worth, this gun shipped 8/38 and has the logo on the left.

 

[mikepriwer]

SP

What is the serial number range ?

Later, Mike Priwer

 

[Art Doc]

Ooops. Correct serial is 56459.

 

[1Aspenhill]

Mike and SP,
with 60692 and the logo on the left, I think it supports the theory that there were limited exceptions to the norm. I agree with Mike that when he checks the other 2 locations, we should have a clearer picture-unless the barrel and yoke have been changed out!

Bill

 

[Art Doc]

56459 (8/38) is on the left. The 60692 gun is on the right. My goof.