Pistol Box and spotting scope for bullseye

[Wayne02]

The spotting scopes at my pistol range leave a bit to be desired and I'm considering a pistol box along with mounted scope.

In researching these I see some boxes have the scope arm (not sure the proper term) mounted at the bottom of the lid (when the lid is in the open position) and some have it mounted at the top of the lid (when open). For example these two (may be the same box?) have the arm mounted at the top of the lid.
SportLock Aluminum 4 Gun Pistol Box :: Pistol Boxes & Cases :: Bullseye Gear

Deluxe 4 Gun Target Pistol Case :: Gun Cases and Pistol Boxes :: Cases :: Champion...

Is there any benefit or drawback to how this arm is mounted? Does one position provide more stability than the other? Would a bottom mounted arm be better for a tall shooter (bench height dependent?) Does the scope stay mounted to the arm when the box is closed up or is it removed and stowed in the lower tray?

With regards to spotting scopes for bullseye at 25 and 50 yards, I'm wondering if my current scope will work in conjunction with one of these pistol boxes. I currently own this scope which is used in Highpower rifle or benchrest rifle. I have a 27X long-eye-relief eyepiece on it currently. This is a nice scope with great glass, but it is a large scope.
Kowa Optimed - Sporting Optics, Medical Equipment, Opto-Electronics

I brought this with me to the pistol range today just to see if I could use it at 25 yards and it worked ok in terms of viewing the bullseye on the target. There was great clarity and .22 cal holes were very easily spotted.

However, I fear this scope would be too large to use on one of these pistol boxes? The boxes say they are 17.25 wide. The scope would fit in the tray if the eye piece were removed, but I'm more wondering if this scope could realistically be used on that arm bracket without the lid wanting to close on its own?

For those of you who use these pistol boxes with the mounted scopes, is this scope likely too big to be of practical use on a box? Do folks usually use a 'compact' scope on these boxes?

Thanks

 

[socal s&w]

I agree, the scope is more useful mounted to the bottom of the lid so when open it is in the upper position.

You will want to be sure and have something to keep the lid open so it doesn't slam/fall shut when a gust of wind occurs. Some box makers have a small 'C' style clamp that fits over the lid part that rests on the top of the box. I use one of those small squeeze clamps the ones that look like jumper cable clamps.

I do not have to remove my scope from the mount when the lid is closed, it does take up some room so you must allow for it in it's resting position. Yes, it's probably better to use a more compact scope.

The scope that I opted for was a Celestron brand. Not too expensive, but very decent clarity. I bought one that has a 20 x 60 zoom so it's possible to use it at differing ranges. IIRC, it was in the $80 neighborhood.

You can check that brand and many others here.....
Celestron Spotting Scopes Specials

 

[Spotteddog]

How many ya' want?
Got three, mid 50's to mid 60's vintage.
BTW, snaps were installed in the top surface to keep the lid in position and prevent slamming. That also kept the scope from wandering around from it's A/P. One is a Pachmyer that still holds my Uncles Navy pistol team certs from 53'-59' under the lid.

 

[m657]

I used an identical box for about a decade. That is a wonderful scope but way more than needed for that distance.

I had a chrome 3" wide formed metal clamp that slid over the lower flap of the lid/upper box to stabilize the lid while open. It was perfect for the purpose, came with the box.

Also mounted a 3" wide magnetic strip on the lid so as to corral the various magazines while on the line. If arranged properly I could leave the mags on this strip while the lid was closed. It helped immensely in the care & feeding of a brace of High Standards during my 50' indoor bullseye fetish.

I always dismounted the scope & stored in the rear lower compartment.

If you get more than a couple pistols in there with the ammo and scope, the box gets real heavy.

 

[mstuhr]

Think"Outside the box"

Hi wayne,
I have mine set up with an adjustable mount on the top, outside of the box. This frees up a ton of space inside the box. I really did it because I felt crowded in some of the stalls I shot in because the scope was between me and the box cutting down on my space. Now it is on top of the box, easy to use and leaves more room for me.
The mount is a clamp on window mount with one leg cut off and it is crewed to the box. It has worked out great so far. I do carry the scope separate.

Good luck
Mike

 

[Wayne02]

How many ya' want?
Got three, mid 50's to mid 60's vintage.
BTW, snaps were installed in the top surface to keep the lid in position and prevent slamming. That also kept the scope from wandering around from it's A/P. One is a Pachmyer that still holds my Uncles Navy pistol team certs from 53'-59' under the lid.

Only one, are you looking to sell one of them?

 

[Wayne02]

Thanks for the replies, I take it the scope is mounted to the bracket with a thumb screw in the same manner that it is mounted to a scope stand/tripod?

Middle shelf is for the pistols. The ammo, the scope and everything else goes in the bottom?

Can you get all the stuff for a 2700 match in one of these boxes, or do you usually have to bring along another small range bag?

 

[PALADIN85020]

When I was in the Army, I created my own pistol box, complete with opening lid which mounted a scope. Made it in the post wood shop for just a few dollars (all I could afford then). Not having the coin to buy a good spotting scope, I found a junk high power rifle scope at a gun show, and mounted that using a pivoting block of wood and a couple of hose clamps. This worked really well, and I used that setup for years and years when I shot bullseye competition. I still have the box and scope today.

 

[m657]

On the box shown above, there is a special chamber around in back at the bottom, with a hinged lid, for stowing the scope. Very handy design.

And yes, they can get heavy if you go for 4 pistols/ammo/stuff it full type of plan. When I carried a brace of High Standards & a 45 plus ammo, scope, magazines, "possibles" it was plenty to carry from parking lot in to the firing line.

Small scope for 50' indoor is plenty...my favored at the time was a Bushnell Trophy....quite adequate for 22 holes out to 50+ yards.

The solid box design with fold up lid doubling as adjustable eye-level scope mount had mostly positive features. Soft bags would require some kind of tripod/scope mounting hardware extra.

No point in carrying extra equipment in the range box....dedicate it to a specific shooting discipline and you'll be surprisingly satisfied how well they work.

 

[oldRoger]

I have a Strong (brand) case. It is fairly large and heavy, but my spotting scope uses too much space if stored inside. Plus the scope bracket needs an adapter to get the scope oriented right, and I really have been unable to put it where I want it, so have opted for a separate stand. This means more clutter to carry along, but that is were I am at this point.
Strong Cases; Champion's Choice - Detail1 - SRC1608 - STRONG CASE PISTOL BOX (THREE GUN) - Champions Choice Products - Range Equipment - Champion's Choice

I understand from my Golfing friends that you can get an electric cart practically “free” with all of the various tax credits for electric cars, I am going to ask at the range, perhaps they will let me outfit a cart and just back it up to the firing line.

 

[Wayne02]

P.S. I don't know how far along you are with Bullseye shooting. If you don't mind some advice from someone who has traveled that road, buy a decent .22 and .45, call it good, and concentrate on shooting instead of new guns. I played with .32's, .38 Specials, 9MM's, and .38 Supers for centerfire guns and spent a lot of money dragging my average down. I'm getting back into 2700 shooting next year with my Hammerli 208 and a .45 wad gun.

I'm just starting out and your advice makes good sense. In fact I went to a NRA bullseye/International pistol clinic yesterday and the instructor basically told us the same thing, "shoot what you have", put the money in ammo and targets.

We went through about 450 rounds and did a mock match so we could get used to how a match operates. Several of the current competitors showed up to shoot as well. It was a very humbling experience to say the least. My 'wobble zone' seems like it is 6' in diameter at times, and the slow fire thing messes with my head. Seems like a good group of people who were very forthcoming with advice and suggestions.

I have a model 41 recently purchased from a forum member that I put an Ultra dot on which works well and is miles ahead of my ability as a shooter. I think my old Kimber .45 would work well as it is quite accurate even with combat sights. I'd like to put a UD on that as well but I don't know how the mounts work on the slides. Not sure if I can send the slide somewhere to be drilled and tapped or what.

 

[Wayne02]

After shooting some now I think the pistol box with mounted scope is the way to go for my situation. The bench/stalls are narrow and there is just not enough room to set up a stand-alone scope along with all the other stuff.

I don't know if there is much difference in light gathering ability of the scopes in this range but the more the better for my situation it seems. Even though it is an outdoor range both the firing line and the target stands are covered. The firing line is enclosed on the back and both sides and the roof is low and extends quite a ways down range. This coupled with the dark days of fall/winter here in WA make for a very dimly lit situation oftentimes. The targets are lighted for matches but you can't turn the target lights on for practice...

It was so dark with a rain downpour the other day that I simply could not see the black on the target through any of the range supplied scopes (mostly Bushnell's). I had to turn off the fluorescent lights in the bay just to see the target beyond the front sight well enough to shoot. Not sure what can be done to help the situation, maybe a better quality scope, or maybe they make those orange/yellow shoot n see's that are the same size as the regulation bullseye.

As crazy as this sounds I've even wondered about those rechargeable spot lights with the built-in stands and setting one on the adjacent bench aimed at my target. I've never seen one in person so I'm not sure if they are capable of putting some light on the target at 25 yards or if they have enough battery capacity to run for an hour or two.

 

[Bullseye 2620]

Wayne,

I've never seen a bullseye set-up like the range you describe, but a well-illuminated target is important. Since you can't do anything about that, get the the scope with the greater light gathering ability. You need to be able to see those first two or three shots of your slow-fire string. After you know you are sighted in for the center of the black, my coach taught me and I will pass this on to you, keep your face out of the scope and concentrate on stance, grip, sight alignment, trigger control, and follow-through. Looking in the scope after every shot distracts you from that.

A Model 41 is a great choice. Where you mount the dot is important. Most of the guys I know place it well back on the pistol so that the center of mass is over the magazine. You can try different positions for the red dot and see what feels best to you. If you have not yet acquired the dot, get an Ultra-Dot Match Dot. If you use the larger dot at 50 yards, and the smaller dot at 25, you may find that your scores take a sudden and noticable upward spike. There are several kinds of Ultra-Dots, but the Match Dot is the one you want.

As to the .45. . .

Slow fire at 50 yards is a tough, tough discipline. I mean, you have all the time in the world to fire those 10 shots, right?

If you have a 4 inch (9-ring) wobble, but the gun is capable of only 6- or 7-inch groups at 50 yards, how are you going to know if the errors you are seeing in the scope and on the paper are the result of you or, of the gun?

My point is that despite the common wisdom that beginning bullseye shooters should "shoot what they have," this is very bad advice. What if you are doing everything correctly and you shoot a 6 because the the gun locked up a little different on that shot? Nothing destroys confidence more quickly than to perfectly execute a shot and yet, have it land out there in the white because the gun locked-up differently on that shot without bothering to tell you first.

In my opinion, and I have been there, it is more important that novice bullseye shooters have a .45 wad gun capable of holding 2-1/2 inch 10-shot groups at 50 yards than it is for High Masters. So, please have your Kimber properly tested in a Ransom rest at 50 yards to see what kinds of groups it can hold. If it holds 3-4 inches, that's not too bad for a beginner, but if I had to do it again, I would have bought a good wad gun capable of 2-inch or smaller groups, first, since that gun is what you use for two-thirds of the match. You can look at spending $500-$900 to get a bullseye gunsmith (yes there are specialists) to accurize your pistol, but you can get the work done for less if you use the factory barrel (presuming it passes muster at 50 yards out of a barrel testing fixture) and forget the cosmetic enhancements (extended mag releases, extended slide stops, ambidextrous thumb safety, mag well, fitted beavertail grip safety). Slide to frame fit, bushing to barrel and slide fit, barrel to slide fit, and a really good 3-1/2 pound trigger are the essentials. You do need to reconsider your decision to try to learn 50-yard slow fire with combat sights -- a set of adjustable Champion sights (now that Bo-Mar is out of business) is well worth the investment. Otherwise, how will you adjust for changes in ammunition, lighting, etc? Believe me, over the course of a day's 2700, changes in the ambient light often require sight adjustment.

As Gny. Sgt. Michael Curtis used to say, and probably still does, "2700 matches are won in slow fire, and lost in rapid fire." True, that.

A couple of members members mentioned a C-clamp like device for clamping the lid to the base of the box, when the lid is raised. Attached is a photo of what these look like (shown with my Model 52-2, which, while my favorite bullseye gun ever, I do not recommend). If you will PM me your mailing address, I will drop the one you see in the mail to you along with some other stuff that you may find useful.

One last thought: the year I figured out what I was doing and earned a High Master rating I put 40,000 rounds of .45 ACP down range, about 800 rounds a week. There is almost no such thing as too much practice, but it needs to be practice with a defined purpose, with defined, progressive goals and measurable markers of your improvement. The best thing is the USMC individual training manual. It is what they use for the Marine Pistol Team at Quantico, and if you follow it religiously, and practice, practice, practice, you will find yourself a member of the 2600 Club before you can say "alibi" .

Good shooting, and I will be happy to pass along the clamp and the other stuff when I hear from you.



Bullseye

 

[adwjc]

Wayne,

the position of the scope bracket becomes critical when you rotate it to the case closed position, it has to swing in under the moveable shelf that holds the pistols; also in the Hyskore and Pachmyer boxes, the edge of the lid is angled, increasing in depth as it approaches the hinge, you cannot rotate the scope bracket 360 degrees as you may need to depending on the height of the bench (unless the bracket is anchored at the top edge when open). Make sure you have free travel before you drill the holes in your cover.

Also, my understanding of the use of the rear compartment was for those venues that demand ammo separated from firearms. That compartment is separate and lockable on the cases I have had.

BTW, the name of the spring steel clip that holds the lid safely open is a "wind clip."

 

[Wayne02]

Thanks for the information and generous offer, Bullseye. I'll send you a Pm.

I think the instructors comment about shooting what you have was more in reference to the M41, which I was using for the clinic. He liked the M41 for both NRA and international competition.

The UD that I'm currently using on the M41 is one that I've borrowed from my son. It is not a matchdot but is a 4 dot with adjustable dot sizes. It is also a 30mm size which the instructor mentioned that he prefers the 1" size as it allows for more focus and less distraction, but a 30mm UD is better than no UD at all. I think the dot range does not go as low as the matchdot either. I can't remember for sure but I think the four dot goes 4, 8, 12, 16, and the matchdot starts at 2 moa?

One thing I've been wondering about is during the timed fire everybody took one shot and brought the gun down before raising for the next shot. There were a number of times where I kind of felt like it would have been better squeezing off two shots during those raises where I had a relatively stable hold? I don't think there is any rule against two shots in a row, but is this not a good practice to get into?

Thanks

 

[m657]

re: "I kind of felt like it would have been better squeezing off two shots during those raises where I had a relatively stable hold? I don't think there is any rule against two shots in a row, but is this not a good practice to get into?"

Single shot refocus will result in higher scores, is what I was taught.

And what I observed in my own training. Eventually. And it will help you find consistency far faster. IMHO.

There are some sound physiological reasons to do such. Read what the Marine manual has to say. The best information I ever got was out of a related manual "Army Markmanship Training Unit" or some such. Jeez that was a LONG time ago....


Cheers!!!

 

[Bullseye 2620]

One thing I've been wondering about is during the timed fire everybody took one shot and brought the gun down before raising for the next shot. There were a number of times where I kind of felt like it would have been better squeezing off two shots during those raises where I had a relatively stable hold? I don't think there is any rule against two shots in a row, but is this not a good practice to get into?

Thanks

Wayne,

You said timed fire, but I think you meant slow fire. You should have a shot plan for every shot. Over time, if you do things the same way, every time, the chaos and turmoil will subside and your focus will increase. You will become one with your shot plan.

Slow fire requires that each shot be fired separately. Sometimes you will see a competitor fire a slow fire shot, and, when the pistol returns to the firing position, the sight alignment is so good--the shot feels so right--that the gun just sort of goes bang by itself and there is another 10 on the target. This may happen later as a part of your development. It is nothing you want to strive for, and nothing you want to practice for.

Here is the current National Champion Jim Henderson showing how it is done with his .45 wad gun at Camp Perry this past summer:

YouTube - James Henderson Bullseye Pistol Shooting Champion 2009

Sustained fire (timed and rapid) is another story altogether. Here, you are not shooting just a shot, but a string of five shots, and how I plan to deliver those five shots on target in 10 or 20 seconds focuses on rhythm and cadence.

Much has been written about this, but as they say, one video is worth 1,000 words:

Bullseye Rapid Fire 100-5X

This is an Army shooter who fires what looks to me like a 100-5X in two regulation five-shot rapid fire strings. The pistol looks like a Beretta M9 accurized for either EIC (Distinguished Pistol Shot) competition or the centerfire leg of a 2700. Notice a couple of things. He aligns the sights on the edge of the target at just the right height so that when it turns, he needs only minor corrections to achieve proper sight alignment on the center of the black. Thus, he breaks the first shot as the target turns, leaving virtually all 10 seconds for the remaining 4 shots. That additional 1/2 second per shot makes a big difference: you don't feel as pressured so it is easier to establish and maintain the consistent rhythm and cadence you need to be a good sustained fire shooter. He lets the gun settle before the target turns, and uses a center hold rather than a six o'clock hold. I was trained initially to use the six o'clock hold, but David Sams, the guy who used the run the gunsmithing program for the Army Marksmanship Unit and who turned the M9 into a competition worthy pistol, has persuaded me that center hold is better. Why focus your attention on anything other than the very center of the bullseye? This makes sense to me. The third and fourth shots of the second string are an example of what some might call a double tap. As the gun returns from recoil following the third shot, alignment is so good that he breaks the fourth shot very close to the third, and they are both Xs. Actually, at this level of skill, "you" don't break the shot at all -- the eye communicates directly with the trigger finger leaving the frontal lobes out of the process altogether. You feel me?

This guy is not trying to "dress up" his shots. He is not trying to make each one an X, although half of them are. He is just centering the pistol in the aiming area, letting the sights come back into alignment anyplace within the aiming area, and then breaking the shot as a part of one smooth, fluid, 10-second operation. The proof is in the pudding: 100-5X. You don't lose matches with scores like that.

I believe I am correct in stating that the Marines still expect their shooters to clean all six targets at the short line in each stage of a 2700. OK, maybe a 99 sometimes. Timed fire is for building your X-count. There you have some time to achieve the really precise alignment needed to shoot Xs consistently. But, it is really no different than rapid fire. You still don't try to "dress up" or "milk" your timed fire shots, because when you do, you ruin your cadence and often end up flipping the last shot down range just to get it out of the gun before the target turns, and shoot a 5 or a 6.

I am going to try to find the USMC Manual I described earlier and post it here. In the meantime, you should know these two resources if you are not already familiar with them: the Encyclopedia of Bullseye (The Encyclopedia of Bullseye Pistol) and the Bullseye-L discussion forum (Bullseye-L Archive | Google Groups). That group is not quite as friendly as this one, but there are a lot of knowledgeable people who hang out there and who can answer some of your questions. The Encyclopedia has many of the bullseye classics, including the entire Army Marksmanship Unit Training Manual (Encyclopedia of Bullseye Pistol). One thing about that though: don't put too much stock in the "Wheel of Misfortune" shot error diagram. A lot of shooters, including the guy who has won the national championship more times than anyone else, Brian Zins, think that it oversimplifies error analysis and at the same time complexifies it: http://groups.google.com/group/bull...t&q=Wheel+of+Misfortune+Zins#a6a1118edb741a09. Another point is that by focusing on your errors, rather than what you are doing right, you are reinforcing negative behavior. I take a middle approach -- analysis with detachment: I analyze every thing I did, both the good and that needing improvement, in relationship to the shot plan I formulated and practiced until it became part of me.

One final point about reading: it is good, it can answer questions at an intellectual or descriptive level. But, the map is not the territory. Bullseye shooting is like riding a bicycle, cooking well, or making love -- you can tell right away if all someone knows about it is what they read in a book.

Ready on the right, ready on the left. . .



Bullseye


P.S.: This one's good too -- 400 people shooting .45s in rapid fire simultaneously. Sounds like bacon on the griddle! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v877KHfHY6g&feature=related. Oh yes, that's the famous Camp Perry 20-mph crosswind you're hearing.

P.P.S.: Bob Horton is right about the Kimber. If you haven't bought one, don't. It's really not what you want for a bullseye pistol. If someone tries to sell you a Kimber Super Match, decline. For the same money, or close to it, you can get a custom wad gun built. I will send you some names with the clamp. The best solution these days if you have $2,000 or so, is to have a gun built on a Caspian slide and frame. Investment casting has come a long way, and Caspian has its stuff together, most def. A good bullseye smith like David Sams can build a gun on a Caspian frame and slide that is just better built: you don't have to squeeze the slide and peen the frame rails because the gun was not built loose to begin with, as is the case with any complete gun you buy. Any decent wad gun will shoot tight when it is new. The question is, how does it shoot after 50,000 or 100,000 rounds? David tells me the Caspian-built guns do much better over the long run than any re-work of a Colt or SA 1911. He built a Caspian recently for centerfire competition (a 1911 in 9mm) that shot a 1.08 inch 10-shot 50-yard group during its proof test. Hard to argue with that.

 

[H Richard]

Lots of great advice here. My best piece of advice was; "Each shot is an individual match, never worry about the previous shot as it can't be recalled, and don't fret about the future shots as they aren't up yet. Just concentrate on the present shot".

The Gil Hibbard scope mount is an outstanding design, and a scope that gives you good clarity but not a lot of weight is most desirable. I found (about 25-30 yrs ago) a Bushnell 20X compact that is perfect for the Bullseye box. Short, and made of a fiberglass body it weighs less than 1 lb. which when you add up 2 guns plus their dot sights, 300 rounds of ammo, half dozen mags for each gun, a few tools, scoring gauges, pens & paper, etc. you are carrying a lot to the firing line. The Bushnell 20X has proven more than adequate in any decently lighted range. If the range meets NRA Bullseye rules lighting you will have no problems.

 

[JERRYB1127]

Only one, are you looking to sell one of them?

If I'm a buyer

 

[JERRYB1127]

I'm interested in buying one. Please contact me. Thanks