Pistols with a shot at replacing the M9

[peyton]

Well from my "FOBBIT on the GROUND" here on Kandahar Airfield, the M9 is carried a bunch and not shot at all. The marines I have seen however have the M9 plus a M4 rifle!! Plus, it looks like them use both.
Another observation is the closer you get to soldiers and marines that actually rely on their firearms for survival, the cleaner they are!! I don't think the Army will abandon the Berretta, could you swap out the upper, and the magazine and make it into a 40S&W??
I learned pistol marksmanship with an 1911 and am very accurate with it, but now everyone wants the hi capacity magazines (love that snail drum with the glock).

 

[David LaPell]

Something starting with 4 in the caliber, and please American made. I think a 1911 is a good start but I don't see the brass hats going back to a .45 Gov't Model. If not, well I can't see a problem with a M & P .45 pistol.

 

[hatt]

I'd like to see us go rouge and issue hollowpoints.

 

[daveh75]

That being said, I believe in the old Victorian practice of letting a soldier make his/her own choice in regards to handguns provided they fire service-issue ammunition. Remember, pistols are really for fighting your way to something more substancial in a warzone. IMHO, it should be left in the same theory as a field knife....it's your backside...your money...and extra weight you will have to carry.

The problem with letting "Joe" carry his own pistol....if he/she goes down and I need that magazine it might not fit my issued side arm....so now the Taliban gets two kills instead of one....there is a reason that the Victorian Age passed....just like the Spartans and the Romans....oh wait the Spartans and the Legion had a standard issue.... And a sidearm is not designed to fight to something else...it is designed to continue the fight when your rifle doesn't work....a COMBAT ZONE and HOME DEFENSE are two separate issues....I know all the "Tactical Pistol Schools" teach that....but being home is different than being in Iraq/Afghanistan/Africa........just me, stay safe...

 

[daveh75]

I'd like to see us go rouge and issue hollowpoints.

Do we use those for hunting.....here we go another hijacked post about ballistics......

 

[hatt]

Do we use those for hunting.....here we go another hijacked post about ballistics......

Not sure what you're talking about. The very first post was about ballistics, or lack of them. I guess the OP hijacked his own thread with the very first post. Also not sure why the hunting reference came in.

My post is about common sense. If HPs are good enough to use on Americans at home they're good enough to use on terrorists some other place.

Unless I missed the sarcasm lol.

 

[daveh75]

Not sure what you're talking about. The very first post was about ballistics, or lack of them. I guess the OP hijacked his own thread with the very first post. Also not sure why the hunting reference came in.

My post is about common sense. If HPs are good enough to use on Americans at home they're good enough to use on terrorists some other place.

Unless I missed the sarcasm lol.

I was totally being sarcastic....hard cast .44 are what a lot of folks prefer for hunting because they work: 140-180lbs animal...international agreements prevent us from using HPs in a war....but FMJs have worked long before the invention of HP ammo...both in war and civilization =) If you think about it...what is a 12guage slug....?

 

[Bullet Bob]

"I'd like to see us go rouge and issue hollowpoints."

And here I was, wondering if I was missing something tongue in cheek (coloring on cheeks?) about this!

 

[chuck pullen]

Let FN USA make the FNX in .40 cal. or .45 ACP. (Although I think our military will stick with the 9mm). They make most of our military's small arms already and they manufacture them in South Carolina, I believe, know it's USA. Haven't heard many complaints about their build quality.

 

[GatorFarmer]

FNH has manufacturing here in SC, but they remain a foreign owned company, the same as Beretta. Not that it matters. They already make some of the M4s, most of the light and GPMGs, and the M16A4. Plus probably other things that I forget.

What the Marines seem to want, and a few have, are S&W M&Ps in .45ACP.

The Army started looking at switching to a DA 9mm pistol immediately after WW2. Took them 45 years.

The .40 caliber Berettas had problems and were largely dumped by LE agencies that had them. That's why ex PD 96s can still be had cheaply.

The Coast Guard already has P229s. Some of them complain about them. The grass is always greener and all that.

If there is a caliber change, it would be along the lines of the 5.7mm FN or the similiar PDW offering from H&K.

 

[mac2]

If there is a caliber change, it would be along the lines of the 5.7mm FN or the similiar PDW offering from H&K.

wonder how well that would go down with M1911 fans...not only foreign, but in a bb gun calibre ...visions of teeth gnashing...

 

[LVSteve]

This is always a fun debate. Some simple facts, folks.

1) The 1911 and .45 went away because the round does not penetrate body armour worth a damn. Yes, I hear you say, but that was a Cold War problem and we need a better smack down round now. Not going to happen on cost and logistics grounds.

2) MANY of the enemy combatants faced in Iraq and Afghanistan go into the fight juiced on meth and dosed to terminal constipation with painkillers. It is a desperate tactic born of asymmetric warfare and there is no quick fix. Read some of the LEO accounts of dealing with those on crack, PCP and meth. You don't need a .45, you want a LAW or a chainsaw.

3) The assumption by the US and NATO is that the Sandbox issue will eventually go away and the next enemy will fight without drugs but with body armour. BTW, I disagree with this assumption. Therefore, the 9mm will remain or if replaced, it will be with 5.7x28 or that 6x30 (??) round developed by Knight's or something very similar.

4) Even 3 will not happen if the powers that be decide that the pistol and PDW rounds must be the same to save money.

5) Old Nick will need a fur coat before the US military go back to general issue of the 1911. Even the M&P 45 or any other caliber other than 9mm will not happen on cost and logistics grounds.

Notice a common theme here? Yep, MONEY, or more precisely, the lack of it. I am afraid your representatives will give money to large aerospace or shipbuilding concerns to save hundreds of jobs, but not a penny to save the relatively few lives lost due to an ineffective handgun. Hard to take, if it is your loved one who gets killed under those circumstances, but there it is.

 

[ibthumper]

if i may add my 2 cents to the thread i suggest that they go with the s&w model m&p an American made pistol for America's fighting men and women

Not going to happen. The UN will not allow it.

 

[Darkenfast]

I browsed a how-to-shoot book in the store a while back (sorry, can't remember the author), in which the writer said that, when he was in Special Forces during the 60's, he and the majority of his colleages preferred the Browning Hi-Power to the 1911-A1. He stated specifically that they believed there was no real difference in stopping power between FMJ 9mm Parabellum and FMJ .45acp, and they chose the HP for various other reasons such as weight of ammo, age of the guns, etc. Anecdotal reporting doesn't tell us anything, unfortunately, and genuine, accurate stopping power statistics are extremely hard to gather and analyze because of all the variables involved. I doubt that the powers-that-be are convinced of any need to go from 9mm to any other "traditional" caliber (I leave consideration of things like 5.7's to the future). There are so many "urban myths" out there regarding stopping power that I'm sure you could fill a book, but as a final thought, I'd like to ask: how many armed forces have dumped the century-old 9mm Parabellum for the .45acp, .40S&W, 10mm, .357 magnum, or any other round?

 

[Engine 21]

Ok....so if I'm reading this right...plastic is the new wonder toy and it's light weight but all have inherent short comings.The 9mm vs. the .40 or .45 cal. is inadequate or at least not up to par.
How about getting input from the practicioners - you know the G.I. and the Gyrenes that actually use these weapons and have staked their lives on the performance of these firearms? Why? - because they have got some skin in the game - their own. So, your likely going to get some pretty intense answers and not some pc answer about NATO or keeping this plant working vs. the other plant.

In years past (vietnam) the grunts depended on a "committee" built weapon (M-16) and the first version cost more than a few their lives because of jamming issues. Back then, many asked for and pleaded to keep the M-14 (the updated version of the M-1 Garand) to no avail. So now everyone has an opinion on what side arm to carry for the military and their are many and varying personal opinions except from the folks that actually use them. I say, ask them, put a testing group together (real grunts and gyreens) and some armors. Then give them all the weapons considered to test and let them give a report on the best three and pick the winner. I could tell you my 3 picks for a winner but that would taint the testing and besides this is the federal government we are talking about and common sense left along time ago.