Please advise, did I do something dangerous?

[Rule3]

Yeah, this is an oddball round I'm loading. Its not in any books, its a pretty unique bullet. I've seen references to people doing all kinds of strange things in 45 acp cases and I don't think this is way 'out there'.

I'm still convinced 4.2 grains of bullseye is pretty light and that the max would be at least 4.8 for this weight bullet. The effect of case capacity is the big unknown, but since I believe I'm well under max 45 ACP (21,000 PSI), and this gun can easily handle .45 ACP +P (23,000 PSI), .45 Super (28,000 PSI), and even .460 Rowland (40,000 PSI) its hard to imagine that I'm anywhere near a dangerous load.

The closest data I could find is all for round nose,

hdy 230 LRN BE 4.5-5.7
lee 230 Lead BE 3.6 (auto rim)
lee 230 FMJ BE 4.5 (auto rim)
lee 230 FMJ BE 5.0
lee 230 Lead BE 4.0
lee 240 FMJ BE 4.9-5.0
lee 260 FMJ BE 4.3-4.5
lyman 225 LRN BE 4.0-5.0
lyman 225 LRN BE 3.0-4.5 (auto rim)

-----

My favorite load so far is a Ranier plated 200 grain SWC over 5.6 grains of bullseye at 1.235-1.240 OAL. That should be good for right around 900fps and is comfortably below max according to Hornady (max 6.3) and Lyman (max 6.0). I can put 30 of them thru a ragged hole barely over 2" center to center at 10 yards, which is well beyond my normal shooting abilities.

I've fired the Buffalo Bore 32A load, a 255 grain hardcast flat point in auto rim at 1030 fps (according to BB) from my 4" tube. That sucker is hot, hotter than factory 45 colt with the same bullet.

I'm headed to the range this evening to find out how much bang I get and how accurate the HBWC's are.

Everything you posted here is totally irrelevant!

You have changed the case capacity so all the posted load data you have above is meaningless.

How do you know what the pressure is?? You are just rationalizing your decision.

Why post if you are going to do what you want anyway??

 

[ILTim]

Haha, well alrighty then. So I should throw these bullets away since they don't exist in a book. Got it. And do whatever you say, or else completely avoid posting. Sure.

How 'bout this, does anybody have any constructive thoughts on how these unique bullets should be assembled into safe ammo?

 

[Rule3]

Well several other posts pretty much say not to shoot them.

You of course are free to do whatever the heck you want.

If you can not grasp the concept of seating a bullet so deep in a case, using a unknown powder charge and trying to compare it to load data for other bullets of completely different shape, then you are on your own.

It's your gun and your fingers.

 

[BruceM]

How 'bout this, does anybody have any constructive thoughts on how these unique bullets should be assembled into safe ammo?

How about this:

Until you have some real data, forget what you're doing or risk personal injury. The nature of your responses says that you're essentially clueless and that makes what you're doing extremely dangerous. It's already been mentioned that, based on how deeply these sit in the case, they are, in all likelihood, meant for use in .45 Colt loads. For what ever reason, you cannot or will not accept this information-possibly because it is not "constructive" enough for you. It is more likely that it's just not what you want to hear. You further tried to "solve" an issue without investigating the cause of the problem except for posting a thread here.

When you get to that point where you actually want to listen to somebody instead of proceeding solely based on what you know (and don't know), try this:

Go back to Matt's bullets (whoever that is) and inquire:

a. Does he have load data?
b. Who did he get the mold from & how do you contact them?
c. Contact the mold's manufacturer & inquire about use in .45
ACP and availability of load data?

Then get back to the collection of simpletons here who are are attempting to help you and let us know how that worked out for you.

Possibly a bullet this "unique" isn't a good fit with somebody of your unique skill set.



Bruce

 

[colt_saa]

The projectiles in question are intended to be fired flush seated from 45 Long Colt cases. They would probably also work just fine in 45 Short Colt or 45 Schofield.

There is no way for these long projectiles to be flush seated in a 45ACP or 45AR case without causing a bulge.

These can be seated long in the 45ACP or 45AR case for use in moon clipped revolvers

As to a charge weight. the hollow base itself increases the volume behind the bullet. Start light and work your way up. You will find a load. Many millions of shooters over the years were able to load with out manuals. Elmer Keith blew up a few revolvers, but was able to load and experiment. If you are sensible, it is not to hard to figure out what to do.

In this day and age where everyone sues everyone, odds are nobody is going to volunteer a load to you .




The above image is provided courtesy of Matt's Bullets

 

[ILTim]

There is no way for these long projectiles to be flush seated in a 45ACP or 45AR case without causing a bulge.

These can be seated long in the 45ACP or 45AR case for use in moon clipped revolvers

Thank you. With regards to seating long can a lube groove be left exposed or is that typically considered bad? I can probably work out what length leaves case volume almost identical to a standard 230 FMJ and that would make things a da** sight more straight forward.

Back to the books it is.

 

[colt_saa]

Leaving a grease groove exposed is usually not a big deal. You just do not lube it when you size.

Since these are already lubed they will attract dirt and dust. So it would not be a good idea.

Look and see if these can be loaded in your cases with all grooved covered. If not find a nice 45 Colt shooter and trade them to him.

If you want to use a HB projectile in the 45ACP or 45AR cases i have at least 250 (perhaps as many as 1000) 185 grain plated HBRN projectiles that duplicate the 230FMJ profile. I will work you a deal on them.

 

[colt_saa]

BTW, these should seat long in a 45ACP or 45AR case with the projectile inverted giving you a large HP.

 

[44wheelman]

Find someone with a Ruger Blackhawk .45 Convertible & chronograph your 4.2gr Bullseye & HBWC bullets in that gun. If you're going to blow up a gun, I prefer it's a Ruger.

Compare your results vs. the published velocities for that load. Now reduce your bullseye until you get the published velocity (or less)... the pressure may still be high. Look for signs of high pressures- buldged case, flattened primers....

If it were me, I would have done this experiment with W231, not bullseye. And since loads are being shot in a revolver, I would seat the bullets to crimp just above the lube groove.

I am all about experimenting and testing; but, it honestly doesn't sound like you have given enough consideration to case volume and pressure. It really does sound unsafe.

 

[BruceM]

Elmer Keith blew up a few revolvers,

Exactly.

The hollow base does increase volume but how much? You need to know before you can use Powley or QuickLoad, neither of which it seems, the OP has.

Bruce

 

[Forrest r]

What you’re shooting is a MiHec bullet from a MiHec mold. They made HBWC bullet molds for the 32, 38, 41, 44 & 45. I own/cast/shoot one of their HBWC molds in 44 & shoot their 220g HBWC bullets.

I’ve done test loads with 4 different seating depths/bullet postions along with 3 different lube styles and 7 different powders.
Bullseye
Clays
Universal clays
International clays
Titegroup
HP-38
WW452

I haven’t chronographed any of the test loads yet but I can say that the bullseye loads hit bowling pins & 6” circular 1” thick steel targets with authority @ 50ft pushing them around like leaves in a gust of wind. I turned one of them around & shot it at 2 1 gallon plastic milk jugs full of water. I set 1 milk jug behind the other & then set a bowling pin behind both of the gallon jugs of water. I shot the reversed HBWC bullet at that setup @ 50ft and the bullet easily went thru both jugs of water & knocked the bowling pin that was behind both jugs off the table when the bullet hit it. Here's the mushroomed slug that was sitting on the table where the bowling pin used to be. In the pic is left to right; a bullet standing up so you can see the hollow base, a bullet laying down sideways showing how wide the bullet is, the mushroomed bullet from the bowling pin table & a dime for reference.

Like I said in an earlier post a 44spl has 50% more case capacity than a 45acp. I wouldn’t destroy the 4.2g loads; I’d rather make more with lighter starting loads with 3g of Bullseye just to be safe. I don’t know how you came up with your data, I didn’t/don’t have any to go buy either. What I did was set a heavier (429421 Lyman 245g swc) bullet beside the HBWC bullet & looked at the seating depth of the 429421 & seated the HBWC bullet to the same depth to start with & used the same powder data for the 429421 bullet. I started with the minimum listed load & worked the load up to close to the max load. I felt safe doing this because:
The bullets are being seated to the same depth (same case capacity).
The HBWC bullet is lighter (220g VS 245g).
The base of the HBWC bullet is hollow which will actually increase the case capacity compared to the 429421.

I took those loads out & shot them to get a feel for the bullet/caliber/pistol combo. These initial test loads gave me some insight on the bullet (MiHec 220g HBWC) that there is no published reloading data for. From there I’ve worked up different loads paying attention to recoil & how hard the bullets hit known targets. I’ve shot 44spls for 30+ years in numerous pistols & have a pretty good understanding of the characteristics of that caliber. In doing test loads in 44spl cases I found that:
5g of bullseye with the bullet seated in the bottom grease groove was a pretty hot load.
4.5g of bullseye with the bullet seated in the top grease groove was a pretty hot load.
4.2g of bullseye with the bullet seated flush with the top of the case was a pretty hot load.

People just want you to be safe. Why not load a couple rounds the same way you did your initial loads but use 3g of bullseye & a couple with 3.5g of bullseye? I’d rather see you do a couple light test loads & report back that we worry too much because all the loads worked sweet.

Be safe & enjoy

 

[oldRoger]

I have been shooting DEWC in my 25 for a long time, I do not seat them flush, in fact I do not seat HBWC bullets in .38 or .44 flush either.
Other old Bullseye shooters and I have found accurate loads with HBWC bullets seated out. Obviously this only works in revolvers.
I have just rec’d some of Matt’s .452” HBWC bullets, as you can see in the photo above there is a large HB which adds to the effective case volume.
There is a limit to how far out of the case they can be seated, dependent upon the cylinder throat of the gun. My 25 has .452” throats (replacement cylinder) so the first step is to find a good COL. I do not recommend a push fit.
Once that is determined you must figure the case volume remaining with the bullet seated and then add the volume in the HB of the bullet.
Compare that volume to the volume in remaining with a 230gr PbRN and you are ready to start working up a load.
None of this is Rocket Science; I am going to start working it out myself this weekend.

Since many 25s have very open throats, I think the HB bullet has the potential to give you a good gas seal and tighten up groups.

 

[Beans]

I follow oal recommendation pretty closely in reloading. It seems to me that the op is creating a ready made setback condition that can increase pressures dramatically. With the heavy bullet, fast burning powder and having "squeezed" the bullet even tighter in the case there is no way I'd shoot that in any of my 45 acp's
Just my thoughts. /MK

I agree. It sounds like a receipt for a serous over pressure load. I would check the load by putting the powder charge in the case and then measureing the amount of space left by lining up the bottom of the bullet with the top of the powder. Just hold the base of the bullet on the outside of the case even with the powder level that is inside the case.. You may have a very compressed load.

 

[cfplinker]

Can you take a deprimed and sized case, insert a 230 grain lead bullet in it to the correct overall length, weigh them, then fill this case (through the primer hole) with water and weigh it again. This will give you the net water capacity of the cartridge with a "standard" bullet. Then do the same thing with your HBWC (dry the case out before you insert the HBWC). Then you will know the difference in case capacities. Let us know what you come up with.

 

[ILTim]

Thanks guys, lots of good ideas to get started. I've set this box aside and marked it potentially dangerous until I get better data and experiences with some lighter loaded test rounds.

 

[ILTim]

Alright, did a little investigating and measuring. First, the bullets pulled way too easy. If this is/was an overpressure round, the loose seating/crimp I have would probably have prevented problems as the primer would surely drive the bullet down the throat of a 625 before ignition. And yeah, the deformation from seating and post sizing is very, very dramatic. Base diameter is .415-.420.

I tried filling the hollow base with water but its too small, the durn water wouldnt come out when turned over! A few measurements proved the futility of that plan, and I dont have a scale that can measure the weight of an assembled cartridge. Instead I filled the cavity with bullseye, scaped it off level with a straight edge (the spine of my caliper), then weighed it. I did this twice each on two new bullets and got the weights 2.2, 2.1, 2.1, and 2.0 grains.

Using the Lee VMD of .10640 for bullseye, this makes the cavity .22cc. (validated by comparing to the 3.0cc=2.8 grains listed in the dipper and auto disk sections).

I measured the bullet overall length (.640, same as a 230gr XTP JHP), and the cavity depth (.328"). The sketch shows that the bottom of the cavity is higher than the base of the 230 XTP loaded to spec.

Assuming this HBWC was solid (like a DEWC) we'd be losing the case volume of .590-.291 x .452 = .79 cc due to the asinine seating depth I used. The hollow cavity gained back .22 cc for a net loss of .57 cc or the equivilent of seating a 230 grain XTP JHP .218" deeper to 1.012" OAL instead of 1.230 as specified by Hornady. IOW, the cavity makes the back of the HBWC theoretically .081" shorter than its physical overall size.

Built in setback indeed.

You can seat this bullet .081 deeper than the 230 grain XTP and end up with the very same (theoretical) solid/flat base position. A safe COAL therefore is 1.149" - which I show in the last photo.

 

[cfplinker]

Is your 625 mountain gun chambered for 45 long colt or for 45ACP? If it is chambered for 45LC and you are trying to use 45ACP cartridges in it, there could be other issues to work on.

What die did you use for your post sizing? If it had a diameter of .468 and your wall thickness is .011, the diameter of the bullet after post sizing shouldn't be below .446 not the .415 to .420 you gave in your post.

Assuming that your chamber is cut correctly for 45ACP the overall lenght needed to chamber will only be a little longer than the case length. With so much of the case volume being taken up with the bullet, even allowing for the space made available in the base, I would think you need access to some computer program that can calculate the pressures created by various charges for this case/bullet configuration.