Plus-P 38 special in older guns

[Brian41]

I have older S&W Model 49 and 36 I've been shooting standard pressure 38 special ammo in. When I was shopping for standard pressure ammo during the ammo short supply MagTech was the only standard pressure ammo I found and I did stock up.
My understanding is 38 special has been downloaded in factory ammunition and maybe current plus-P ammo is at pressures equal to the old standard 38 special ammo. Would this be correct as I'm hearing such on another gun forum and internet claims make me suspicious always.

So my question is would I be safe shooting today's plus-Ps in older J frames on occasion and for carry or would I be better off using standard pressure 38s in them as I have?

 

[badge 851]

I have older S&W Model 49 and 36 I've been shooting standard pressure 38 special ammo in. When I was shopping for standard pressure ammo during the ammo short supply MagTech was the only standard pressure ammo I found and I did stock up.
My understanding is 38 special has been downloaded in factory ammunition and maybe current plus-P ammo is at pressures equal to the old standard 38 special ammo. Would this be correct as I'm hearing such on another gun forum and internet claims make me suspicious always.

So my question is would I be safe shooting today's plus-Ps in older J frames on occasion and for carry or would I be better off using standard pressure 38s in them as I have?

Most people will tell you it's OK to fire a limited amount of +P ammo in your gun. Only you can decide if it is worth the risk, if any. Now for me personally, I would stick with standard pressure ammo. The following load is standard pressure but has the knockdown power of almost all current 38 Special+P and is my daily carry load in all my 38 Special guns...........
• Click it

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I can't tell you what to do with your revolver but I'll tell you what I do with mine. The current pressures generated by most .38 Special +P ammo will not damage all steel revolvers made after WWII. (IMO of course) I shoot Remington FBI Load ammo (158gr LSWC/HP +P) in my older M36 and pre-Model 10 all the time without issues. I'm not telling you you should do the same, only that I do...

As for Buffalo Bore ammo, I find it very hard to believe ammo that generated so much more velocity than any other standard pressure ammo actually stays within SAAMI pressure limits.

 

[photoman]

If I had an older Model 36 or 49, I wouldn't lose a bit of sleep carrying +P ammo in it. Shooting moderate amounts of +P in one of those steel guns is not going to hurt a thing in my opinion.

 

[badge 851]

I can't tell you what to do with your revolver but I'll tell you what I do with mine. The current pressures generated by most .38 Special +P ammo will not damage all steel revolvers made after WWII. (IMO of course) I shoot Remington FBI Load ammo (158gr LSWC/HP +P) in my older M36 and pre-Model 10 all the time without issues. I'm not telling you you should do the same, only that I do...

As for Buffalo Bore ammo, I find it very hard to believe ammo that generated so much more velocity than any other standard pressure ammo actually stays within SAAMI pressure limits.

As an ammunition manufacturer BB has powders available that you and I can't get for reloading. I have been shooting Buffalo Bore® 357 Magnum and 38 Special ammunition since it was first introduced. I shoot the 158gr LSWCHPGC standard pressure in my 38 Special guns, and the same bullet in +P flavor in my 357 Magnums. In all those years I've never encountered an over pressure load (blown out cases, flattened primers, or sticky extraction). Both loads have identical POA/POI in my guns.

I wish you the best of luck in what you choose to carry and shoot; as for me, I will continue to use 158gr BB ammunition in my 38 Special and 357 Magnum revolvers. Regards...........

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I shoot the 158gr LSWCHPGC standard pressure in my 38 Special guns, and the same bullet in +P flavor in my 357 Magnums. In all those years I've never encountered an over pressure load (blown out cases, flattened primers, or sticky extraction).

You will never notice pressures signs for rounds slightly over 20,000 PSI let alone slightly over 18,500 PSI. It's just my opinion the velocities they produce are "too good to be true" and when things ate too good to be true they usually are. I know they use powders we can't buy but so does every other factory ammo manufacturer.

 

[bennettfam]

Standard psi for practice, +P for carry.

This is my strategy in my old 37 no-dash. My gun will last forever and I won't have to worry about harming it, but if I ever need to save my life I will have that extra umpf that may make a difference.

 

[Brian41]

Thanks for the replys guys. I think I'll stick to standard loads, my moderate reloads and maybe some plus-Ps on occasion.

 

[Old cop]

FYI when I ran several rounds of Buffalo Bore 158 +P through my 638 I found it almost impossible to extract after the fifth shot. I had to pull out all five by hand so I switched to CorBon 110 DPX +P and the problem vanished.

 

[mkk41]

Gee , this hasn't come up before , now has it?

Modern commercial .38 Special +P is loaded slightly hotter than current 'standard' .38 Special , which is held low due to concerns over firing in older revolvers , or in guns chambered in .38 Long Colt , but still well below industry 'maximum'.

 

[Poohgyrr]

It sure has come up before.. Maybe I'm wrong, but....

I am sure I saved a copy, but can't seem to find it right now - an old S&W ad saying the K frame 38's of the time could handle the 38/44 loads of that same era. That alone says something.

Enough people have chron'd original boxes of that ammo, and compared it to current ammo, to satisfy me that current ammo has been downloaded from back then.

Considering how our society has changed the way it handles personal responsibility, liability lawsuits, and so on, ammo company lawyers might demand their employers download ammo. Again, chrono some old ammo, check the old ammo companies published data, and compare it with current ammo & data.

And todays' metals are stronger, and manufacturering tolerances are tighter. We not only have .357 J frames, but some are made of new super lightweight metals, and they have the recoil to prove it.

Todays' handguns should handle yesterdays' ammo without trouble. Seems the old standard .38 ammo was as powerful as today's +P.

So, maybe I'm mistaken, but I see companys basing policies and procedures on what "might happen" every day. Seems the post WW2 steel frame .38 Special S&W's should handle current +P factory ammo without much problem. The J frames will probably do better than our hands will.

I duuno, but looking at chrono'd ammo, published data, society, and so on, this seems to make sense to me.

FWIW...

 

[stiab]

...38/44 loads of that same era...to satisfy me that current ammo has been downloaded from back then.

Of course it has, if you are comparing only with yesteryear's 38/44 loads. But it is not appropriate to make that comparison. The 38/44's were designed to be fired in an all steel N frame that would pull your pants down if hung on a belt. Today's .38 Specials are largely intended to be fired out of J frame mouse guns, many of which have alloy frames. In the actual comparisons I have done, there is not much difference between today's standard loads and standard loads of years ago.

 

[badge 851]

It sure has come up before.. Maybe I'm wrong, but....

I am sure I saved a copy, but can't seem to find it right now - an old S&W ad saying the K frame 38's of the time could handle the 38/44 loads of that same era. That alone says something.

Enough people have chron'd original boxes of that ammo, and compared it to current ammo, to satisfy me that current ammo has been downloaded from back then.

Considering how our society has changed the way it handles personal responsibility, liability lawsuits, and so on, ammo company lawyers might demand their employers download ammo. Again, chrono some old ammo, check the old ammo companies published data, and compare it with current ammo & data.

And todays' metals are stronger, and manufacturering tolerances are tighter. We not only have .357 J frames, but some are made of new super lightweight metals, and they have the recoil to prove it.

Todays' handguns should handle yesterdays' ammo without trouble. Seems the old standard .38 ammo was as powerful as today's +P.

So, maybe I'm mistaken, but I see companys basing policies and procedures on what "might happen" every day. Seems the post WW2 steel frame .38 Special S&W's should handle current +P factory ammo without much problem. The J frames will probably do better than our hands will.

I duuno, but looking at chrono'd ammo, published data, society, and so on, this seems to make sense to me.

FWIW...

I agree with you. One thing I have noticed over the last couple of decades, is that European ammo (Fiocchi® and Sellier & Bellot®) is loaded to higher velocities; compared to most American 38 Special loads. The Sellier & Bellot® 158gr FMJ range ammo is listed at 890fps. The same load in Remington®, Federal®, Magtech®, whether FMJ or LRN; is about 750-760fps. I wish I knew what pressure it's loaded to. Both the S&B and Fiocchi® 158gr FMJ is very accurate in my Airweight®.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I agree with you. One thing I have noticed over the last couple of decades, is that European ammo (Fiocchi® and Sellier & Bellot®) is loaded to higher velocities; compared to most American 38 Special loads. The Sellier & Bellot® 158gr FMJ range ammo is listed at 890fps. The same load in Remington®, Federal®, Magtech®, whether FMJ or LRN; is about 750-760fps. I wish I knew what pressure it's loaded to. Both the S&B and Fiocchi® 158gr FMJ is very accurate in my Airweight®.

American ammo is loaded to SAAMI pressure limits whereas European ammo is loaded by CIP pressure limits. CIP limits are generally higher than SAAMI limits.

C.I.P.= Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives

WEB site = Accueil | BOBP Application

More information HERE. (in English)

 

[badge 851]

American ammo is loaded to SAAMI pressure limits whereas European ammo is loaded by CIP pressure limits. CIP limits are generally higher and SAAMI limits.

C.I.P.= Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives

WEB site = Accueil | BOBP Application

More information HERE. (in English)

Thank you so much for sharing this information; I really appreciate it!

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I'm glad I could help...

 

[badge 851]

Today a 158gr bullet at 850fps is considered to be a +P load. Digging around in old books and gun magazines, I found that when the 38 Special was first introduced (1899-1902 depending on where you look); the standard load was a 158gr LRN bullet at 850fps. Today, in the 21st Century, the standard load is a 158gr bullet (lead or jacketed) at 750-755fps. So the Buffalo Bore load I carry and am so fond of (Click it) fits both categories. Kind of makes me wonder if the current Buffalo Bore® 158gr+P (Click Here) with over a 1000fps, is like the earliest +P, 38/44, or Super-Vel loads of the 1960's. What do you think?

 

[stiab]

What do you think?

I think most of the old ads significantly overstated the velocities on factory loads back then. I can't speak to published data from 1900, but the info from the factories in the 1960's and 1970's was surely exagerated. There is a thread on this forum from a year or so ago where several LEO from that era (including myself) expressed this opinion. That changed in the 1978/79 timeframe with the new testing requirements for revolvers ammo. This may be why for many years the Secret Service loaded their own ammo in the basement of the Treasury building in DC. Just my opinion.

 

[jimmyj]

IMHO stick with standard velocity ammo.
Jimmy's opinion and five dollars will usually purchase a cup of coffee most anywhere.

 

[Maximumbob54]

I think if you want to shoot high velocity then you should buy a magnum. If you have an older gun and have any value for it them why would you be stoking it with something you are worried would ruin it. After seeing several cracked alloy framed guns recently if gets easy to believe the use of +P's are the culprit. Shooting some good soft lead HP's at standard velocity will get the job done unless your BG is a bull moose. If you need a smallish revolver to treat with Corbon/Buffalo Bore/+P whatever, then buy a Model 60 or a SP101.