Plus-P 38 special in older guns

[bmcgilvray]

"Back in the days of the Dinosaurs both Elmer Keith and Jeff Cooper advocated loading 158 gr LSWC bullets with enough Red Dot and or Green Dot powder to achieve 1000 fps. in 2 inch J frames. This in the 1950' and 60's."

Those two did advocate heavy handloads but I'll suggest that they didn't achieve those velocities with Red Dot and Green Dot. More like Unique and 2400.

 

[Nevada Ed]

I might be wrong but I think they used the 38/44 and N frames for most of their heavy test loads...........

A K frame maybe but I don't remember any data where a small J frame was ever used in testing those high pressure loads............

but I was more into rifles at those times and did not keep up with all the pistol stuff back then.

 

[Boge]

I've come across it in my reading. I have no evidence except that is a primary explanation for the velocities that they are getting without exceeding Sammi specs. Maybe you could call it a 'special blend' of powder. How do you think BB gets the velocities that they do?

No factory or boutique ammo maker uses duplex or triplex loads. They use SPECIAL CANISTER powders blended especially for them to their specs by the powder cos. This has been public info practically since Eisenhower was president.

 

[PALADIN85020]

Jeff Cooper (the Guru) said:

"The .38 Spl. I consider this cartridge to be a two-inch-barrel-only proposition. In a snubby I like a 160-grain lead SWC and either five grains of Red Dot or 8.5 grains of SR4756, to break 1000 fps. Such a load is hard on the gun, but you don't get something for nothing. For a policeman who is forced to use a .38 Spl. but can go to a six-inch barrel on his duty gun, I suggest the Speer 146-grain JHP and 10 grains of SR4756, for 1300 fps. This is an overlooked combination that gets the tired old .38 up into low-end .357 performance."

Important disclaimer: I take NO responsibility for advocating or suggesting these loads, but I will tell you that I have loaded up his Red Dot load and it was really harsh in a Model 60. I only shot a few of them, and the rest have been sitting in my closet since the 1980s. As always, YOU are responsible for what you load. Just sayin'.

John
__________________

 

[WDF]

Seems to me we are getting sidetracked with details instead of the big picture. Tests have shown that bullet placement is far more important than bullet/velocity. Two shots to thorax or head (and often one) is pretty much a stopper for any 38 load, and most other calibers. Seems like most important is practice at the range with whatever you select for your gun. Hit 'um where it (stops 'um) hurts.

 

[rwsmith]

This thread is long in the tooth, but....

Jeff Cooper (the Guru) said:

"The .38 Spl. I consider this cartridge to be a two-inch-barrel-only proposition. In a snubby I like a 160-grain lead SWC and either five grains of Red Dot or 8.5 grains of SR4756, to break 1000 fps. Such a load is hard on the gun, but you don't get something for nothing. For a policeman who is forced to use a .38 Spl. but can go to a six-inch barrel on his duty gun, I suggest the Speer 146-grain JHP and 10 grains of SR4756, for 1300 fps. This is an overlooked combination that gets the tired old .38 up into low-end .357 performance."

Important disclaimer: I take NO responsibility for advocating or suggesting these loads, but I will tell you that I have loaded up his Red Dot load and it was really harsh in a Model 60. I only shot a few of them, and the rest have been sitting in my closet since the 1980s. As always, YOU are responsible for what you load. Just sayin'.

John
__________________

I'm going to go out on a limb and with the same disclaimer Paladin makes, I'm going to say that there are many makes of revolvers with all kinds of age, quality and condition.

An all steel Smith and Wesson in good shape that was designed for smokeless powder isn't going to blow up firing a typical +P round made today. This may not apply to the hot boutique rounds but for guns are strong and well made, +P just isn't that hot nowadays. It may be hard on the gun if shot continuously but it will loosen and shake before anything drastic happens. I echo Jeff Cooper's adage that a low end .357 round is effective if handled right. I load what amounts to a really hot .38 in a .357 case. Easy to handle, won't blow out your ears, especially indoors and decent velocity. Something else I prefer is something a little longer than a 2" barrel to get over the 'short barrel velocity' hump. I don't think an extra inch of barrel is going to make a gun unwieldy. Another thing I don't pay attention to is the 'one shot stop' that is the holy grail of loads. If I ever have to pull a trigger, it isn't going to be just once.

This is all just my opinion and take on things., but I've put a lot of thought and research into this and feel comfortable not carrying a big, powerful gun.

 

[rwsmith]

This thread is long in the tooth, but....

Jeff Cooper (the Guru) said:

"The .38 Spl. I consider this cartridge to be a two-inch-barrel-only proposition. In a snubby I like a 160-grain lead SWC and either five grains of Red Dot or 8.5 grains of SR4756, to break 1000 fps. Such a load is hard on the gun, but you don't get something for nothing. For a policeman who is forced to use a .38 Spl. but can go to a six-inch barrel on his duty gun, I suggest the Speer 146-grain JHP and 10 grains of SR4756, for 1300 fps. This is an overlooked combination that gets the tired old .38 up into low-end .357 performance."

Important disclaimer: I take NO responsibility for advocating or suggesting these loads, but I will tell you that I have loaded up his Red Dot load and it was really harsh in a Model 60. I only shot a few of them, and the rest have been sitting in my closet since the 1980s. As always, YOU are responsible for what you load. Just sayin'.

John
__________________

I'm going to go out on a limb, and with the same disclaimer that Paladin makes, I'm going to say that there are many makes of revolvers with all kinds of age, quality and condition.

An all steel Smith and Wesson in good shape that was designed for smokeless powder isn't going to blow up firing a typical +P round made today. This may not apply to the hot boutique rounds but for guns are strong and well made, +P just isn't that hot nowadays. It may be hard on the gun if shot continuously but it will loosen and shake before anything drastic happens. I echo Jeff Cooper's adage that a low end .357 round is effective if handled right. I load what amounts to a really hot .38 in a .357 case. Easy to handle, won't blow out your ears, especially indoors and decent velocity. Something else I prefer is something a little longer than a 2" barrel to get over the 'short barrel velocity' hump. I don't think an extra inch of barrel is going to make a gun unwieldy. Another thing I don't pay attention to is the 'one shot stop' that is the holy grail of loads. If I ever have to pull a trigger, it isn't going to be just once.

This is all just my opinion and take on things., but I've put a lot of thought and research into this and feel comfortable not carrying a big, powerful gun.

 

[fdw]

There is a great post on another forum that I cannot link to here but in my opinion current +p is just fine, just not the really hot stuff.

I keep Winchester +p in my 1923 M&P and usually shoot 6 per range trip. Practice with non +p.

 

[shouldazagged]

My EDC J-frame and HD K-frame are loaded with the Buffalo Bore standard pressure 158 grain LSWCHP-GC. Independent reports I've read here and elsewhere say it chronographs at an honest 850 fps + a smidgin, from a two-inch barrel, comparable to the older Remington +P FBI load I carried for years. Other people posting here have tested the new Remington rendition and found it clocks well below that figure.

I have no qualms about shooting +P in my steel snubby or 1967 10-5, but I want the level of performance that the old Remington FBI load gave for decades.

 

[Texas Star]

Jeff Cooper (the Guru) said:

"The .38 Spl. I consider this cartridge to be a two-inch-barrel-only proposition. In a snubby I like a 160-grain lead SWC and either five grains of Red Dot or 8.5 grains of SR4756, to break 1000 fps. Such a load is hard on the gun, but you don't get something for nothing. For a policeman who is forced to use a .38 Spl. but can go to a six-inch barrel on his duty gun, I suggest the Speer 146-grain JHP and 10 grains of SR4756, for 1300 fps. This is an overlooked combination that gets the tired old .38 up into low-end .357 performance."

Important disclaimer: I take NO responsibility for advocating or suggesting these loads, but I will tell you that I have loaded up his Red Dot load and it was really harsh in a Model 60. I only shot a few of them, and the rest have been sitting in my closet since the 1980s. As always, YOU are responsible for what you load. Just sayin'.

John
__________________

Yes, I recall Cooper writing that. Personally, I think he was right out on the edge with those loads.

 

[rwsmith]

I have no qualms about shooting +P in my steel snubby or 1967 10-5, but I want the level of performance that the old Remington FBI load gave for decades.

I can't afford Buffalo Bore, so that's why I make my own hotties.

 

[e3mrk]

I had a Revolver blow up in My Hand once.Believe Me it's a experience I don't want again so I always stay with what the Firearm is rated for.

 

[BlueLineNYPD]

I have posted my question which is - Can I shoot +P Ammo in a S&W 640 Centennial that was purchased in 1991? in many forums and got different answers. What I will say is that when I asked S&W that same exact question (3 different times), I was told by all that S&W DOES NOT RECOMMEND using +P Ammo in ANY of their guns produced before 1997. I myself (as another member posted in this same thread) am a retired Police Officer who was given +P Ammo by my department to use in my 640. I sent the gun to S&W a few months ago just to get looked over being that it’s 30 years old, not because I’ve had any issues. The gun is currently still there and I’m being told that the cylinder needs to be replaced because of expanded chambers due to the use of +P Ammo. Whether that’s true or not I don’t know but what I am going to do is use standard pressure for practice and +P for carry.

 

[ddixie884]

Good idea...............

 

[medic15al]

[/COLOR]You will never notice pressures signs for rounds slightly over 20,000 PSI let alone slightly over 18,500 PSI. It's just my opinion the velocities they produce are "too good to be true" and when things ate too good to be true they usually are. I know they use powders we can't buy but so does every other factory ammo manufacturer.

Every Batch of BB 38 Spl ammo I've chronoed has met the advertised velocities. their loads are within SAAMI pressure specs, but are right at them. Lawyers and product liability has ammo makers scared of lawsuits and the ammo is loaded under specs.

A batch of 1951 38 spl RNL police issue load tested by a agency I worked for at the time showed that ammo was at at 21,000 psi spec, while the latest (2004) Rem 158 LSWC-HP +P was at 17,500 psi ave.

This was a large security and armored car agency that was limited to .38 spl revolver only by the state law at the time. Now 9mm is allowed as an option.

 

[medic15al]

Today a 158gr bullet at 850fps is considered to be a +P load. Digging around in old books and gun magazines, I found that when the 38 Special was first introduced (1899-1902 depending on where you look); the standard load was a 158gr LRN bullet at 850fps. Today, in the 21st Century, the standard load is a 158gr bullet (lead or jacketed) at 750-755fps. So the Buffalo Bore load I carry and am so fond of (Click it) fits both categories. Kind of makes me wonder if the current Buffalo Bore® 158gr+P (Click Here) with over a 1000fps, is like the earliest +P, 38/44, or Super-Vel loads of the 1960's. What do you think?

I am in agreement. The +P BB 158 LSWC-HP is the 38/44 velocity and pressure level load of the yesteryear. The independent lab tests I talked about above shows that.

In my 4in K-frames, the BB 158 +P LSWC-HP all average between 1110-1120 fps consistently and 1000 from a 2in J or K snub.

Mind you, I don't shoot them constantly, just enough to maintain familiarity with recoil and check impacts, ~200-300 a year.

 

[Groo01]

Groo here
S&W says if the gun is steel and stamped with the model[ M10-5 etc]
Shooting +p is fine.
I think all steel 38 revolvers starting with the mode stamping were proofed with the 38-44 highspeed loads;[even snubs]
. remember most people shoot more in a year than the older guns ever had through them and light loads were used for range use....

 

[ddixie884]

I agree with you. One thing I have noticed over the last couple of decades, is that European ammo (Fiocchi® and Sellier & Bellot®) is loaded to higher velocities; compared to most American 38 Special loads. The Sellier & Bellot® 158gr FMJ range ammo is listed at 890fps. The same load in Remington®, Federal®, Magtech®, whether FMJ or LRN; is about 750-760fps. I wish I knew what pressure it's loaded to. Both the S&B and Fiocchi® 158gr FMJ is very accurate in my Airweight®.

I have a coupla cases of perfecta "Fiocchi" 158gr FMJ ammo and it is HOT. I saw a you tube video that chronoed it at @900fps from a 4".....

 

[Dave Lively]

Every Batch of BB 38 Spl ammo I've chronoed has met the advertised velocities. their loads are within SAAMI pressure specs, but are right at them. Lawyers and product liability has ammo makers scared of lawsuits and the ammo is loaded under specs.

You chronograph your ammo to know what the velocity is. How do you know what the pressure is?

There is very little risk in making ammo loaded up to SAAMI specs. How often do you hear about guns blowing up due to over-pressure ammo? In the case of +P 38 Specials being shot in guns not designed for it I have heard of stretched frames and expanded cylinders but not the sort of explosions that would have corporate lawyers worried.

Specialty ammo producers like BB and Underwood have little to offer compared to the big manufacturers except unusual bullets, very small volume niche loadings and most importantly higher velocities. I do not think Underwood and BB could stay in business if their ammo was not more powerful than Federal, Speer, Remington, Sig, etc. They have a lot more motivation to load their ammo a llittle over SAAMI specs than other companies have to load theirs a little under. Without independent pressure measurements there is no way to tell. While every gun channel on YouTube has a chronograph none of them has way to accurately measure pressure.

Before the days of affordable chronographs ammo used to be rated as higher velocity. Those of us old enough to remember reading articles in gun magazines in the 80s all remember statements like "I am sure cartridge achieved its rated velocity in a pressure test barrel but in my gun . . ." as an explanation as to why it was falling so short of its rated velocity. The reduced velocity ratings of today's ammo has more to do with widespread independent testing than it does actual reduced loading.

I don't really know if the extra power produced by Buffalo Bore ammo is the result of big companies loading their ammo below spec, BB going over it or a combination of the two. Unless you have a way to measure pressure neither do you.

 

[medic15al]

You chronograph your ammo to know what the velocity is. How do you know what the pressure is?

There is very little risk in making ammo loaded up to SAAMI specs. How often do you hear about guns blowing up due to over-pressure ammo? In the case of +P 38 Specials being shot in guns not designed for it I have heard of stretched frames and expanded cylinders but not the sort of explosions that would have corporate lawyers worried.

Specialty ammo producers like BB and Underwood have little to offer compared to the big manufacturers except unusual bullets, very small volume niche loadings and most importantly higher velocities. I do not think Underwood and BB could stay in business if their ammo was not more powerful than Federal, Speer, Remington, Sig, etc. They have a lot more motivation to load their ammo a llittle over SAAMI specs than other companies have to load theirs a little under. Without independent pressure measurements there is no way to tell. While every gun channel on YouTube has a chronograph none of them has way to accurately measure pressure.

Before the days of affordable chronographs ammo used to be rated as higher velocity. Those of us old enough to remember reading articles in gun magazines in the 80s all remember statements like "I am sure cartridge achieved its rated velocity in a pressure test barrel but in my gun . . ." as an explanation as to why it was falling so short of its rated velocity. The reduced velocity ratings of today's ammo has more to do with widespread independent testing than it does actual reduced loading.

I don't really know if the extra power produced by Buffalo Bore ammo is the result of big companies loading their ammo below spec, BB going over it or a combination of the two. Unless you have a way to measure pressure neither do you.

A security agency I worked a bit at had .38 Spl. only restriction by state law at the time and the owners and firearms instructors were enthusiasts and had several .38 loads tested. After settling on I think 6 loads, they had a lab test the pressures in them to cover the bases. All ammo was SAAMI or less with exception of one and it was rejected. (the load was a contract test submission and never was on the public market)

The BB +P loads were right on the limit, with highest velocity and accurate by advertised velocities by their website.

UA was second by 75-100fps slower but still 1000+fps (4in barrel) (Load no longer offered)

The big 3 were bumping along in the 18,000 (highest) to 16,500 (lowest) One load's velocity for +P was 800fps..

All were 38 Special +P 158 LHP loads.

I cannot give any more info on loads or companies, and this is what I was informed by the guys and I saw it on paper.

As with any +P loads, enough of anything will affect timing, stretching, or even forcing cone wear, but realistically if you shoot that much ole Bezos's fortune is chicken**** money....