Plus-P 38 special in older guns

[MPSGT]

I think if you want to shoot high velocity then you should buy a magnum. If you have an older gun and have any value for it them why would you be stoking it with something you are worried would ruin it. After seeing several cracked alloy framed guns recently if gets easy to believe the use of +P's are the culprit. Shooting some good soft lead HP's at standard velocity will get the job done unless your BG is a bull moose. If you need a smallish revolver to treat with Corbon/Buffalo Bore/+P whatever, then buy a Model 60 or a SP101.

Regarding this issue of alloy guns, I have a new Model 638, alloy frame that is marked to shoot +p ammo. I also own a Model 36-1, steel frame from about 1976 in like new condition that I'm told not to use +p ammo with. Comparing the 2 guns, my presumption would be that the older model 36 would handle +p ammo much better than the new 638. Am I wrong?

 

[Cerberus62]

Today a 158gr bullet at 850fps is considered to be a +P load. Digging around in old books and gun magazines, I found that when the 38 Special was first introduced (1899-1902 depending on where you look); the standard load was a 158gr LRN bullet at 850fps. Today, in the 21st Century, the standard load is a 158gr bullet (lead or jacketed) at 750-755fps. So the Buffalo Bore load I carry and am so fond of (Click it) fits both categories. Kind of makes me wonder if the current Buffalo Bore® 158gr+P (Click Here) with over a 1000fps, is like the earliest +P, 38/44, or Super-Vel loads of the 1960's. What do you think?

Not trying to get off the track of the thread, but you really should stop using the blue text.

On the grey background it makes your posts very difficult to read.

 

[JGR_LV]

I have no issues with carrying +P ammunition for social purposes in even the alloy-frame J-frames, and if you're going to do that, you should verify shot placement at the range, too. I wouldn't advise feeding one, particularly an alloy-frame gun, a steady diet of them, though. If you practice a lot and you want to practice with your carry gun, I'd suggest standard or target loads for that.

 

[358156hp]

Something needs to be understood here. Velocity has no bearing at all on the "+P" designation. +P simply indicates that the loading develops chamber pressures above the SAAMI specs for the caliber. It is possible to have a standard velocity load that is high in chamber pressure, just as it's possible to have a higher velocity std pressure loading. Velocity and pressure has a sort of interdependence, but they are not synonymous or interchangeable by any measure.

Now, back to the original post. My experience has been that 38 Spl ammo has remained pretty consistent pressurewise over the years. However I have noticed downrating of the 357 magnum pressures over the last few decades. I've also heard complaints that the 357 loads are down to where 38 Spl +P performance used to be. Loading data from the sixties vs todays data seems to support these claims, however the powder manufacturers have claimed that they simply have better ways to measure chamber pressure, and that only current data should be used. That said, my old 38 +P load is wayyyy off the charts nowdays, and the old Model 36 I used to shoot it in never seemed to care about it at all.

 

[shawn mccarver]

I have older S&W Model 49 and 36 I've been shooting standard pressure 38 special ammo in. When I was shopping for standard pressure ammo during the ammo short supply MagTech was the only standard pressure ammo I found and I did stock up.
My understanding is 38 special has been downloaded in factory ammunition and maybe current plus-P ammo is at pressures equal to the old standard 38 special ammo. Would this be correct as I'm hearing such on another gun forum and internet claims make me suspicious always.

So my question is would I be safe shooting today's plus-Ps in older J frames on occasion and for carry or would I be better off using standard pressure 38s in them as I have?

I have always thought that S&W said that +P in limited amounts is ok in any of their revolvers with a Model number.

Even if not, Saxon Pig on this forum has done research and testing, and he says current +P is no hotter than old regular stuff.

If I were you, I would use standard pressure for most shooting and +P for carry and occasional familiarization.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Some where I read where the steel mod 49 was designed to fire 10,000 (158gr) rounds, half which could be at 900fps velosity, befor it had to go back to the factory to be checked out.
I do not have this data on record any more or do I remember the source where it came from...............sorry.

I fire a few 158 FBI loads in mine but they are reloads that chrony at 812fps..........not the hot 850fps plus Remington factory loads. However with the new bullet designs out,I have switched over to the 135gr Gold Dot that has less recoil and is a little easier on the J frame with a better expansion record and it meets the FBI requirements.

As for a Non+p SD load, I am still working on a 125 Jhp at 900fps or a 148 BBwc at 775fps that meets my requirments in accuracy,poa, expanion,penetration, recoil and follow up shots.

I don't have this problem with the 686.

 

[badge 851]

Not trying to get off the track of the thread, but you really should stop using the blue text.

On the grey background it makes your posts very difficult to read.

I corrected that; THANK YOU for bringing it to my attention!

 

[BigCityChief]

I have both a Model 10 and Model 36 which are both 33 years old. The Smith & Wesson armorers at the Police Department from which I retired recommend using 135 gr +P Speer Gold Dot JHP in both of them as a SD round. Hope this helps.

 

[blasterp7]

American ammo is loaded to SAAMI pressure limits whereas European ammo is loaded by CIP pressure limits. CIP limits are generally higher than SAAMI limits.

C.I.P.= Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives

WEB site = Accueil | BOBP Application

More information HERE. (in English)

Wow - I wish I could speak French like that - I think the chicks would really dig it!!!

 

[wild_weasel]

I own both a S&W RHKP M-10 and Saudi M-49. Neither would shoot to point of aim with standard pressure 38 Special. Then one day I gave Remington +P 158gr LSWC-HP FBI loads a try. Bingo! both revolvers sht to point of aim...

 

[DWalt]

"Something needs to be understood here. Velocity has no bearing at all on the "+P" designation. +P simply indicates that the loading develops chamber pressures above the SAAMI specs for the caliber"

Wow, is that statement ever wrong. +P is under SAAMI specs. +P+ does not have SAAMI specs.

 

[DWalt]

This whole apprehension thing about the danger of using +P loads is insane. +P is perfectly safe to use in ANY steel frame .38 Special revolver - even the oldies. The real reason not to use it is economics - it costs too much.

Be aware that back in the "old days" of the 1930s, the ammunition companies advertised .38/44 ammunition (under whatever name) as being safe to use in ANY revolver chambered in .38 Special, even the old ones from pre-WWI that were not heat-treated. And the .38/44 loads were far more potent than today's +P loads, over 1100 ft/sec with a 158 grain bullet. The only warning they provided was that of substantially greater recoil when fired in lighter revolvers.

 

[rwsmith]

I believe they use a triplex charge

I can't tell you what to do with your revolver but I'll tell you what I do with mine. The current pressures generated by most .38 Special +P ammo will not damage all steel revolvers made after WWII. (IMO of course) I shoot Remington FBI Load ammo (158gr LSWC/HP +P) in my older M36 and pre-Model 10 all the time without issues. I'm not telling you you should do the same, only that I do...

As for Buffalo Bore ammo, I find it very hard to believe ammo that generated so much more velocity than any other standard pressure ammo actually stays within SAAMI pressure limits.

The triplex charge enables the pressure peak to be wider instead of having just one sharp peak. The wider area can deliver power longer and still stay under the maximum peak pressure. The thing is that you and I can't do this because it takes testing equipment that we don't have to make sure these rounds stay within Sammi spec. I've heard of some of the wildcat hand loaders using a pinch of this and little bit of that, but they blew up a lot of guns, too.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

"Something needs to be understood here. Velocity has no bearing at all on the "+P" designation. +P simply indicates that the loading develops chamber pressures above the SAAMI specs for the caliber"

Wow, is that statement ever wrong. +P is under SAAMI specs. +P+ does not have SAAMI specs.

Oh come on, everyone knows what he meant. He left out, "+P simply indicates that the loading develops chamber pressures above the standard pressure SAAMI specs for the caliber"

He is completely correct, the +P designation refers to pressure, not velocity.

 

[cocojo]

This issue has come up many times. I would not shoot +P in older aluminum framed guns as in my 37 but I would try a few in my 36 all steel framed gun. I carry the 37 always and carry standard pressure ammunition in that gun. If you go on You Tube there are many testings for standard loadings in 38 special. I use either Hornady Critical Defense 110 FTX or Hornady 158 xtp and have carried Remington 110 sjhp also. The 158's penetrate very well and I have to say, I do deepen the hp a bit on these rounds. I just want the tip to expand or peel back somewhat, then penetrate with the heavy bullet weight behind it. The critical defense ftx bullets work very well my only concern is enough penetration. Most accurate in my gun is the Remington 110 SJHP.

 

[Nevada Ed]

I finally finished up with my test of +P loads in my M49 S&W.

I tried to make the little 110 Jhp Sierra and Winchester bullets work but with seven powders and three primers the best I could get was a target/practice load at 860 fps that shot 1" low with 4 of 5 at 1.16 inches at ten feet.
I did get a "Cor-Bon" type load with a maximum amout of Unique at 996 fps that shot well but I do not think a 110gr is a bullet that I want to trust my life on for penetration and getting the job done, 100% of the time.

I did get the Speer Gold Dot and Remington 125 gr Jhp bullets to work for me with a fps from 889 to 903, where the bullets performed well and had around 222 ft/lbs of energy with around 4.38 ft/lbs of recoil in the litthe snub nose.

The factory Speer 135 has a recoil of around 4.78 ft/lbs with the same energy.

Now for the FBI 158 lead test.........

The factory Remington FBI load can go from around 880 to as high as 890 fps in snub nose revolvers depending on their shape and conditions. My box gave 851 fps, 254 ft/lbs of energy and the recoil from handloads.com read out at 5.86 ft/lbs.
My most accurate reload with 4.5grs of powder gave 822fps, 237 ft/lbs of energy and only 5.31 ft/lbs of recoil plus it shot at POA with 5 at 1.5 inches at ten feet.
I did have one powder with a heavy crimp post 948 fps with over 730 ft/lbs of RECOIL that I only fired 3 of the 5 reloads, since I knew this was just a wee bit over what might be called a maximum load, per the recoil and noise, that it made.
This was a maximum load in a alliant manual but I think the very heavy crimp, put it over the spec's and what my revolver was made to handle.

For me a 125gr at around 888..........

or a factory 135 or 158 FBI is about as good as it gets for the 38 snub nose for maximum power loads.......... but this does not leave out the standard loads that have also worked over the years in stopping a threat.

As I stated in the beginning I do not like the little 110gr JHP but I would HATE to have two of them rattling around inside my body !!

 

[JeepinSoldier]

There are 5 Speer 135 grain .38 Special +P Gold Dot Short Barrel cartridges nestled in the chambers of the Model 60 in my holster right now.

I would not hesitate to load them - or the +P LSWCHP loads in a Model 36 or 49 either.

 

[Warren Sear]

The triplex charge enables the pressure peak to be wider instead of having just one sharp peak. The wider area can deliver power longer and still stay under the maximum peak pressure. The thing is that you and I can't do this because it takes testing equipment that we don't have to make sure these rounds stay within Sammi spec. I've heard of some of the wildcat hand loaders using a pinch of this and little bit of that, but they blew up a lot of guns, too.

What evidence do you have that suggests they use a triplex charge?

 

[rwsmith]

I'm not going to make a court case....

What evidence do you have that suggests they use a triplex charge?

I've come across it in my reading. I have no evidence except that is a primary explanation for the velocities that they are getting without exceeding Sammi specs. Maybe you could call it a 'special blend' of powder. How do you think BB gets the velocities that they do?

 

[poordevil]

Back in the days of the Dinosaurs both Elmer Keith and Jeff Cooper advocated loading 158 gr LSWC bullets with enough Red Dot and or Green Dot powder to achieve 1000 fps. in 2 inch J frames. This in the 1950' and 60's.

At gun shows I have been able to pick up .38 special +p+ boxes of 50 rounds for less than 25 rounds of +p. I guess people are afraid of it and avoid it. I carry and shoot ever so sparingly those +p+ out of my M 36 and 642. No signs of injury after 15 years or so. We must remember that these rounds are anti personal rounds, therefore realistically, how many will you really shoot? I might shoot 10 rounds a year a piece in my 2 J frames. The rest are easy does it reloads.

So the Big question is, If I have a gun chambered for .38 Special or .357 Magnum, can I shoot .38 Special and .357 Magnum out of them. The answer is, of course you can. People need to stop being afraid of their guns. (he said in a friendly way with a smile)

ps....the bullet weight for the +p+ are 110 gr Winchester and Federal and 147 gr Winchester.