POA help?

[dbc]

New to CC and just getting my CC weapon set up for me. My question is maybe crazy but just want others input. Where do you aim? POA? Doing a little two Tap shots today and I am a little low. See Pictures for details and questions. The one with the 5 small bad guys (BG) was my target. I was leveling my sights on the top of the Red dot. Then for the last set of 2 taps I leveled on the line at the neck. All appear low. My question is where would you level your sights to hit in the red dot? On the second pic I have A B C as a choice. I was shooting A but didn't like it because I couldn't see what I was shooting for. B seems to be the correct answer but again I can't really see what I'm going for. C looks like a good choice for me because I would be able to see the whole red top that I'm shooting for. In the third pic with BG eyes & noise added if I leved on C the tip of noise or mouth, then I could see what I was hoping to hit. Your thoughts?? Just wanting to get my pistol and my head on the same page. Plus all the while praying I never have to test it out.

 

[Beauetienne]

You'll probably get different advice from different members but, I sight with the bull sitting on the top of my front sight rather than covering the bull with my sight. The advantage is that you always see your intended target rather than covering it up.

When shooting quick, successive shots you should concentrate mostly on watching your front sight.

If your carry arm doesn't shoot to point of aim elevation wise, you can make adjustments to, or change your front sight (assuming non-adjustable sights). Taking a little off of the front sight would raise your POI. You could also try different rounds as the point of impact will likely change a little.

Since you will be using this as a SD arm, whatever method of sighting that you use in practice should be the one that you will naturally (hopefully) use in a real situation. You don't want to be thinking that you have to adjust at that point in time.

G'luck.

 

[BigRich315]

Great advice from Beauetienne.

On the other side of the coin, I prefer what they call a combat sight picture: the sights cover up where you want to hit (your B, I suppose). To me this is alot more natural in a tense situation, I just have to point to where I want to hit and squeeze.

I fully agree that the most important thing is to change your weapon and/or ammo to fit what you feel is best for you. This means adjusting sights and possibly using a heavier bullet (heavier bullets have a higher POI in some cases, though it seems counter-intuitive).

From your targets it looks like you need to raise your rear sight (if possible) or change to a lower front sight. Then, most importanly, practice, practice, practice! And always aim center of mass, i.e. chest.

I hope you never have practical use for this advice (other than at paper). Good luck!

 

[dbc]

OK Bea...I take that as one for "C" POA.
Thanks...

 

[MKT]

What gun, what ammo, what distance?

Different ammos can have a very big POI v POA effect. Without knowing any of that, it appears in your 5 BG target, you seem to be anticipating a little and pulling the trigger to the right if right handed, or pushing it to the right if you are left handed. Hold center of mass, keep the front sight in focus and let the target blur. A steady and straight back trigger pull until the hammer breaks should result in a POA-POI hit.

 

[dbc]

The 5 Bg were at 25 Ft.
S&W 3914
9mm...Some were 147 gr. JHP but 90% were 115 gr. FMJ.
I really could not tell any difference in POI. (My hand not that steady)
right handed...Yes, dry firing I can tell I'm pulling to the right a little.

 

[FrankD45]

Expanding on the prior posters, I think step one is to establish Point Of Impact with different loads. I do that by firing at a known distance from a solid rest to a Point Of Aim and then observing the POI. I sometimes carry a Kimber Aegis II 9mm with fixed sights. I finally figured out that it shot to POA with Winchester White Box 147gr JHP. Once I established that, it really doesn't much matter if you use A,B or C as an aiming point. Your focus should be on your front sight. Did I mention practice, practice, practice?

I hope that helps,

Frank

 

[MKT]

Now you need to figure out which ammo your gun is regulated for, and whether it is set for a center hold or a six o'clock hold. I have some that are regualted for a center hold and others for a six...it just take a little work to determine which.

Back to your trigger pull...the shots to the right are you pulling the gun and/or trigger to the right. The low is most likely anticipation. You can dry fire the gun until you can get the hammer to fall without the front sight moving left/right or dipping and diving. It'll take a lot of dry fire.

The 3914 is a double/single action, correct? Do dry fire in both double and single action to work on that first shot sequence and follow-up shot sequence. For the DA start fast and get most of the travel out fo the way, then slow the trigger but don't stop the rearward movement (just like a DA revolver) and let the hammer break. For the SA pull, work the slide or just hammer it back, get your finger placed and slowly increase pressure till the hammer breaks. It should be a surprise when the hammer falls - everytime.

 

[scooter123]

Frank pretty much hit the nail square on the head. Everyone should spend some time bench shooting their handguns for precision. It not only teaches you about the particulars of the sights on your gun, it also helps you improve your trigger control. BTW, when your bench shooting you always want to focus on the exact same point of your target for every shot, don't aim at your previous strikes because you just end up chasing all over the target. The goal of hitting the bullseye is initially a secondary goal, the primary goal for this exercise is to produce the smallest grouping that you can. Once you've got your groupings very tight, then you can start applying Kentucky Windage to your sight picture or tune the sighting for alignment.

BTW, I prefer the "European" or "Combat" sight picture. This is a sight picture where the front sight covers the POI. The reason I prefer this is because it's a very instictive way to use the sights. However, Precision shooters prefer using a "top of sight" or "6 O'clock" hold because it allows them to see the POI over the sights. Because of these mixed preferences different manufacturers use different sight pictures on their fixed sight guns. Before you do any bench shooting I would suggest consulting the owners manual to acquaint yourself with the sight picture that was used for your gun. While it's not critical to know this, it is helpful when you first start out.

About that only exception that I would take with Frank is the front sight advice. When I was going thru my CPL training I had an older Police Seargent knock this advice out of my head. As he put it "If you keep shooting like that your going to take 3 hits for shot you fire". He told me to focus on one single spot on that target and shoot at that spot as soon as the sights were aligned with a line between my eye and that spot. By taking that advice my firing rate dropped from 1.5 seconds per round to .75 seconds per round, all in a 30 minute time span. I also found that my groups dropped in size by a full inch. The problem with focusing on the front sight is that it can cause your to "chase" the sight with you eyes. Then you have to take time to re-acquire the aim point on your target and this will slow down your rate of fire. As for why my groups tightened up, when you shift your gaze from a single point, it's hard to go back to that exact same point quickly. Maintaining a single point focus can result in shooting a tighter group simply because you never take your eye off that point. As for the sights being out of focus, it really doesn't matter for Combat shooting. What matters is being able to the ability to put enough rounds quickly into the COM to achieve a good stop.

 

[dbc]

Thanks Guys...lots of great info. and help. First I want to be looking at what I want to hit, so "C" is my choice (Bull on top of sight); always looking at and seeing POI. Yes 3914 is DA/SA and yes I find myself pulling pistol more to the right with the DA shot. I will practice and dry fire to fix this. Now to my pistol shooting low. On the pic of 5 BG I drew a 3 1/4 sq. box so you could get a feel for the size. Either bench or free hand shooting produced the lower shots. I was shooting "A" (referred to as combat...hide the target) on the Red Dot because I knew pistol was shooting low. I figure I need to adjust my pistol to shoot 3" highter? How do I do this? 3914 has fixed front and rear sights? Does S&W offer different hights on their sights?

 

[scooter123]

I am not familiar with the 3914 so I'll go over the options that are available on current semi autos. First off, there are two different types of fixed sights on semi auto pistols.

One is that the sights are machined into the slide from the raw bar stock as the slide is manufactured. In this case a gunsmith would have to machine the sights off the slide and cut dovetails for the installation of aftermarket sights. However, there is a very cheap fix that will work for this type of sight system that I'll bring up. That is to file the front sight down until it's hitting like you want it to. This may not look quite the same as original finish but it is cheap.

Second, most Semi's today have both front and rear sights that are replaceable, commonly they are pressed into a dovetail cut. If your sights are replaceable, one option is to have a gunsmith make up a shorter front, or taller rear, sight for your pistol. It may not be cheap as you may like but it is one option. If you have 3 dot sights that are replaceable, it's also fairly simple to remove the existing front sight, fill in the bore for the dot with weld, cut the sight down, and then re-drill a new lower bore for a new white dot.

The third option is to look at after market sights. If your pistol currently doesn't have replaceable sights, this can get to be expensive because the slide will have to be milled for the sights. If you already have the dovetails cut in your slide, it's a lot cheaper. In this case you just have to start shopping around at the various sight makers, some who will do custom sights on a special order basis. As for S&W offering a sight for you 3914, you should try calling them, they may be able to help. However, the only sights that I have seen on their web site are for the revolvers so don't get your hopes up.

Personally, if your pistol currently has dovetail mounts, and you want to take the aftermarket route, I would look into upgrading to either fibre optic or night sights at the same time.

For night sights my preference is Meprolight sights, they feature a reflective ring around the Tritium tube that makes them easy to see in almost any lighting. However, I don't think that Meprolight offers a custom option and they may not make a sight specific to your needs. However it does appear they make a sight set for the 3900 series.

http://www.meprolight.com/default.asp?catid={27C69B99-4C45-44D9-9AC7-0085255AF055}

For fibre optic sights, William Firesights does make a very good sight and they also do custom, to order sight work. However, this could cost north of 300 dollars depending on what's required and you'll probably have to ship your complete pistol to them in Michigan so they can fit and tune your pistol on their range. You also have to know that they will sight the gun to hit to your POA specification it THEIR shooters hands. Because grip, ammunition used, and skill level can effect elevation, those sights may not hit to the same POA in your hands. So, to some extent it's a bit of a gamble and won't be inexpensive.

Williams Gun Sight, Inc. | Gun sights for rifles, pistols, shotguns, muzzleloaders, and more

 

[H Richard]

This "analysis" target is intended for bullseye shooting, but has a place in all shooting with handguns.

 

[dbc]

My S&W 3914 has the 3 dot fixed and connected with the dovetail cut as you stated. See Pic. I'll check the sites you posted and check with S&W. The chart should also help me solve my grip problems.
Any guess as to how much shorter a front sight I would need to raise my POI 3-3.5" at 20 Ft.??

 

[dbc]

Update....Great news. S&W is going to make repairs/adjustments under warranty. Will set my sights for 6 O'clock POA. Great companies make great guns!

 

[Spotteddog]

DBC,
I'm very interested in what the mechanical solution to this turns out to be? I've had two auto loaders in the past (non-S&W's) that suffered POI/POA issues. One was related to a galled guide rod preventing full lock up (that gun shot erratically high). Another with a miss milled barrel hood lock up surface area. That gun was all over the map for POI.
If S&W shares what the cause is, please do so with us!
Thanks!

 

[tom turner]

Hi,

Screw the ol' round "bullseye" sights when determining the POA of your preferred self-defense handgun and use the following type of target and you'll be able to better determine where your gun is shooting.

THE SQUARES . . .

You make them on your computer. I use Microsoft Publisher but Word and Excel will also do . . . as will some Mac programs.

Once you've developed your black targets, you can print them out on your computer to use!

THE GOAL . . .

Create black squares at the ratio of 1" black squares = 10 yards of distance. Thus, you'll make a sheet of 1" squares (about five of them spaced out) to use as your ten yard targets.

Make other sheets for other distances too, while you are at it:

- 2 squares, spaced out on the paper, of 2 1/2" in size for 25 yard shooting.

- one 5" square, centered on the sheet, for 50 yard fun.


Why the 1"/10 yard rule? Because that's the size square that sits at the perfect size on your handgun's sights at any given distance. (Yep . . . a 10" black square looks the same at 100 yards as a 1" square does at ten . . . giving you more confidence!

Also, this size square is incredibly easy to line up with your sight blades in perfect alignment with the bottom of the square, and the square's shape also assists you in centering the rear blade with the front AND to determine that your gun is perfectly squared with the target in every way!

Here's a group of targets, shot standing/unsupported at ten and 25 yards for a new (for me) 1964 Model 36 snubbie I bought a couple of years ago, when I first too it out to see where the POA was. For a novice handgunner, I'd recommend you shoot from sandbags at the bench in this manner first!!! If you do, and your hand/eye/trigger technique, bagged, is sound, you should be able to put five shots into about an inch at ten yards as you see here.

Also, an inch accuracy at ten yards WILL equal 2 1/2" accuracy at twenty-five. Do NOT get upset if you group bigger than this, each gun is different, as is the shooter . . . but your group size ratio will expand proportionately as you go out further.

Also, different makes/bullet weights/bullet designs WILL shoot to different POA. Shoot several brands and see which type your gun "likes" best!

BTW, lighter bullets generally exit the gun quicker, and thus shoot LOWER, so if you want to raise your POA, use a heavier bullet and visa-versa.

Hope this helps!

Tom

1. 148 gn. Winchester target wadcutters @ 10 yards . . .

2. Left target - 140gn. Hornaday XTP self defense ammo @ 10 yards . . . notice the shift in POA and the wider group vs. the wadcutters . . .

Center target - 148 gn. Winchester target wadcutters @ 25 yards . . .

Right target - 140 gn. Hornaday XTP @ 25 yards . . . again, the POA is shifts right, and down, proportionately to the wadcutter POA of same bullet weight.

BTW . . . my M36 snubbie shoots AT POA at 10 yards (my preferred POA for a snubbie revolver. ALSO . . . those 25 yard targets? I was shooting at the TOP black square each time . . . so you can see how much the POA drops at 25 yards from a .38 special snubbie if the POA is at 10 yards.

Bigger handguns? I sight them at 25 yards to CENTER in my 2 1/2" black squares, holding my sight blades on the bottom of the black square.

Again, hope this provides some insight. We're all different in the way we prefer to sight our handguns. HOWEVER . . . we'd all better be danged sure we know where our rainbow trajectory bullets hit at all the various ranges. This information must be recorded . . . and then memorized if you ever hope to be proficient with all your handguns!



I've shot other bullet weights in this gun too as I determined what I carry in this revolver. BTW, S&W regulated the sights on their ol' Model 36 snubbies for 158 grain bullet weights, as mine so aptly shows. Thus at 10 yards, mine shoots 'em slightly high but they are even higher yet at 25 yards . . . perfect!