Police Issued .38 Round Nose? When?

[Buford57]

Finance had a lot to do with it. My department issued 125 Gr. Speer JSP until S&W offered a great deal on 125 JRN one year. It was greeted with all the enthusiasm given to fecal matter in the punch bowl, but we were stuck for the year. That September an officer shot a knife-wielding burglar at about 15 feet. The bullet shed its jacket on the perp's down vest, nicked a lung and ended its career as an unexpanded slug in the other side of the vest. The suspect then outran the officer. He still had enough energy to charge me 5 or 6 blocks away 10 minutes later, but not enough to get to my "line in the sand".

The chief's public statement was that the ammo "performed admirably" but a month or so later we were issued Federal +P 110 gr HPs.

 

[federali]

In the 1960s and 1970s, my agency qualified at the large NYPD outdoor range at Rodmans Neck, in the Bronx. I believe it was around the 1970s that NYPD went to the 158 grain semi-wadcutter, dropping the round nose bullet. I recall NYPD either issuing or selling the new ammo in 20 round boxes.

 

[Skeptic 9c]

I remember an article in the 1960s advocating the 200 grain lead semi-flat nose, fired from a six inch 38 special police load.
Geoff
Who has been around awhile.

 

[WR Moore]

If true, then it begs the question; why were U.S. police departments overwhelming using 158 gr RML for 40 or 50 years?

Because for 40 or 50 years (and more) it was about all that was factory available. Remember the round originated in 1899. Different bullet shapes didn't become available in factory ammo until the late 1960's/early 1970's.

One minor exception was metal piercing ammo. That generally had either a metal capped RN or a cone shaped bullet. In the late '60's Winchester loaded the cone shhaped bullet in .357 and a Lubaloy semi-wadcutter (which left gobs of itself in the rifling). The other was target wadcutter loads.

The 200 grain bullet was interesting and had potential. BUT, it was downloaded to keep the same point of impact as the 158 gr load with fixed sight service revolvers. It also might be that given the powders of the day, that was all that was possible (pre +P) to deliver. More robust loads hit way high.

 

[Skeet 028]

One minor exception was metal piercing ammo. That generally had either a metal capped RN or a cone shaped bullet. In the late '60's Winchester loaded the cone shhaped bullet in .357 and a Lubaloy semi-wadcutter (which left gobs of itself in the rifling). The other was target wadcutter loads.

I have a few of the SP rounds they made back then and at least 2 boxes of that Lubaloy junk. You are right...it left 1/4 of the bullet plating the bore...or so it seemed. Didn't they also make some 44 mag ammo plated the same??

 

[pharman]

200 grain "Police Special"

I have in my ammo collection two boxes of 38 Special made by Western in 200 grain Lubaloy...boxes are marked "Police Special"...seems like they would do the job...

 

[Biggfoot44]

The 158gr +P LHP was adopted by the FBI in 1972 .The 110 +P+ JHP was adopted by US Treasury in 1973 .

SuperVel predated these by a cpl years . From early '70s on , all the major, and some regional Ammo mfgs were chasing the LE Duty/ Civilian SD market hard, and had a plethora of JHP and JSP offerings .

Starting then , improved ammo became the hot thing , with relatively quickly spreading . ( I personally saw W-W 158 LHP on LE duty belts in '74 .)

It shook out that 158 +P LHP became most wide spread , followed by 110 +P+ jhp , with various 110gr and 125gr jhp , usually , but not always +P .

For the OP's display purposes - By the late '70s the tipping point had passed . Most LE Agencies were using some form of HP as the norm , and any exceptions stood out as being out of step . LAPD probably the last large holdout with RNL into the early '90s, with NYPD having switched to 158 SWC ( not HP) .

***************************

Why ? ( Why RNL , why so long , etc )

1. It was a step up from .32 S&W Long/ .32 Colt New Police , and .38 S&W / Colt New Police . Also , in the early 1900s , many PD that previously not had standardized guns/ ammo , joined the .38spl bandwagon ( and for 70yrs , the 158 RNL was THE Police Service Load , and was presumed , unless otherwise refered to as Wadcutters or Target Ammo .

The "good things" about std .38spl , is being in a sweet spot of being somewhat controllable by most Ofc with modest initial training, and haphazard requalifications . Combined with what was initially considered " reasonably adequate " power . It wasn't until the mid 1930's that the FBI began the spread of somewhat standardized firearms course of fire ( now known as PPC ) .

But yes , plenty of people knew better. It was an earlier era . Lots of PD had Ofc provide their own firearms , and gun savvy Ofc would use .38-44, .44, .45, .357 .

 

[DWalt]

Both .38 S&W and .38 S&W Special loads were once available with 200 grain LRN bullets (maybe they still are, I didn't check), usually labeled by Western and Winchester as "Super Police." The idea was that the longer bullet stabilized poorly and would yaw when passing through body tissue, causing more extensive internal damage. There is a tendency to confuse the 200 grain .38 Special "Super Police" loads with the .38-44 high speed .38 Special loads, but they are entirely different cartridges.

One of the reasons that the British military adopted the pre-WWII .380 Mark I revolver load with a 200 grain LRN bullet (sometimes incorrectly called the .38-200) was that they believed it had more "stopping power" than a lighter bullet for the reason previously mentioned. The British .380 Mark I military load was pretty much identical to the US .38 S&W Super Police load, but was dropped early in WWII as it was not compliant with the Hague Convention protocols. It was replaced in British service by the .380 Mark II cartridge which used a 178 grain FMJ bullet. At least by reputation, it was somewhat less effective in combat than the older Mark I cartridge.

 

[dpsmousegunner]

I started in 1972 with the Arizona Department of Public Safety, Highway Patrol. Our issued weapon was a Model 15 and duty ammunition was 110 grain Super Vel, although we used 148 grain wadcutters for qualifications. I remember feeling fortunate that we had hollow point ammunition as most other agencies were carrying 158 grain RN as a duty round.

 

[Frank46]

Actually and this my best guess is the transition from the old 38 special with the old 158 grain round nosed lead bullet. Was caused by more criminals armed with 9mm. Which had more penetrating power and at that point in time the powers that be finally decided to go to a more powerful cartridge. The original ballistics back then for the 357 magnum were pretty impressive compared to the old 38 special. When I irst moved down to Louisiana back in the beginning of 1996 I met a young sherifs deputy.. Who at the time was carrying an old model 10 with the old pencil barrel. He had to buy his own gear and I think ammo. heck, NYC had changed over way before that. And I'd bet there were other parishes here in Louisiana that were still arming their deputies with revolvers loaded with the old 158 load. Think a few parishes switched to Beretta 92 series of pistols in 9mm. Then came the Glocks in 40 S&W and don't know what they are carrying now. We had Burns Guards on our property and one of the old sergents had an ancient S&W model unknown revolver with a 6" barrel. Frank

 

[stansdds]

The use of semi-auto pistols, most commonly chambered in 9x19mm, was a reason for law enforcement agencies to upgrade their revolver ammo but it was also the primary reason for agencies to switch to semi-auto pistols.

 

[LEO918]

We were issued 200 grain Lubaloy until Supe-Vel became the round of choice.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

If true, then it begs the question; why were U.S. police departments overwhelming using 158 gr RML for 40 or 50 years?

Probably the most direct answer to this question is that it was the most commonly available ammunition on the market. Jacketed bullets in revolver ammo did not reach the marketplace in any quantity until the latter 1960's. Hollow-point and soft-point ammunition was not commonly available until the late 1960's, and even then was seldom seen on dealer shelves. In .38 Special there were only a few choices: mid-range wadcutter (target ammo), standard velocity lead round-nose (general use), and high-velocity (what would now be called "+P" or hotter loads, with LRN or metal-point for increased penetration).

A second answer to this question is that law enforcement agencies must operate on a budget imposed by political masters, and most items that are purchased must be the most economical products available. Many agencies had their own reloading equipment to produce ammunition at minimal cost. Many agencies purchase "remanufactured" ammunition as a cost saving measure. Even those agencies that issue premium defensive ammo for duty use seldom fund the use of the same ammo for range training and qualification use.

 

[max503]

It seemed like kind of a big deal when the Illinois State Police went to semi-autos. I believe they were one of the first big agencies to do so. I could be wrong.

 

[DWalt]

"A second answer to this question is that law enforcement agencies must operate on a budget imposed by political masters, and most items that are purchased must be the most economical products available. Many agencies had their own reloading equipment to produce ammunition at minimal cost."

Back when I was a kid in southern Ohio, the local Sheriff's Department used county jail trusties to reload handgun ammunition. I once saw that being done, they had a Star reloader. I suppose it was used mainly for training/practice.

 

[BAM-BAM]

My Dad had a Star reloader reloaded all the practice and range ammo for the Dept and the Dept's Pistol team. In the winter he's shoot 2 nights a week (the Twp had a 10 position range and the High School had a 5 position rifle range. Ha the good old days) and reload one night......that Star could really crank out the ammo......my job was to fill 50 rd ammo boxes......

Cast his own bullets from wheel weights donated/collected by local gas stations, a FBI buddy would bring him 5 gal buckets of once fired brass from Quantico

 

[roo_ster]

If true, then it begs the question; why were U.S. police departments overwhelming using 158 gr RML for 40 or 50 years?

IGNORANCE
What is commonly known these days by gun owners with internet access (or gun rags in years past) was not commonly known back at the turn of the 20th century. The way to get MORE POWER was to move up to a larger diameter (.32 to .38 to .44) cartridge with commensurately more mass (100gr to 158gr to 240gr) or to a cartridge with more velocity (.38 Short Colt to .38 Long Colt to .38 Special to .357mag). Not everybody was reading Elmer Keith and casting LSWC.

INERTIA
Never underestimate the power of inertia. What did the last guy in my position buy last time? I'll buy more of that...

AVAILABILITY
"We play both kinds of music here: country AND western." "We produce ammo in large quantities for volume discount in two varieties: target wadcutter and LRN."

ENVIRONMENT
Which changed in 1965 with the "crime wave." The social controls of Jim Crow were abolished combined with a new and hostile attitude toward LEOs resulted in MANY more perp-police shootouts. Toss in greater drug use and what was getting it done pre-1965 was no longer getting it done...or 158gr LRN never got it done all that well, but now there were more examples coming faster demonstrating its inadequacy.

158gr LRN PERFORMANCE
There are mathematical models, anecdotes, data gleaned from shootouts and all that. Those generally point toward 158gr LRN being a poorer performer relative to other options.

What really cemented it in my mind was an article in a gun magazine touting LRN as a great small game-getter. The argument was that centerfire cartridges with SWC or HP pills tended to turn small game (rabbits, squirrels, etc.) inside out and destroyed the meat. OTOH, LRN caused little more disruption than .22LR LRN or plated LRN. But, yeah, I experimented with LSWC and LSWCHP vs rabbits and squirrels. Head shots were mandatory, as thoracic cavity shots left a mess I would not want to eat. LRN allowed for boiler room shots, anchored small game fine, and left much omre meat edible.

I think a lot of the knock on the 158 RNL is propaganda put out by the ammunition companies in order to sell us more expensive hollowpoint ammunition. They are continually getting us to jump through hoops. Look what is happening with the 40/9mm. All of a sudden the 40 is not required and you've just got to buy the super-duper 9mm ammuntion. It's happening with the guns too. You can't get much selling a 40 today. I bet in a few years the situation will reverse. So it goes.

MARKETING
No argument, marketing is a big deal.

9x19mm NEW HOTNESS
The "better bullet technology" story is only part of the answer. Yes, many ammo makers now produce ammo that performs IAW FBI standards in gel. To include 9x19.

But I think the real answer is political. Affirmative action for women and other folks not traditionally in the gun culture results in students/employees that can not qualify with a more robust cartridge like .40S&W, .45ACP, etc. 9x19 is easier to teach a noob or someone marginal to shoot for qual. Think of that Somali cop in Minnesota who shot the gal who called 911. I be dollars to donuts that dude barely qualified or did not qualify on many tasks, but was pushed through to graduation of LEO school.

 

[38SPL HV]

I recall the NY MTA police (subway) carrying 158 gr round nose in their cartridge loops. The NYPD above ground had 158 gr SWCs circa 1979.

 

[Univibe]

Bullhockey!

It was and still is a horrible choice for self-defense. Don't confuse being lethal with stopping power. It is of little comfort to your family when your attacker dies 30 minutes after you do.

In the 1970's hollow point ammunition was a political hot potato in many cities across the nation. Race relations were bad and complaints of police brutality was common. So non-gun Police Administrators refused to change ammunition while officers died on the streets. As old Administrators retired new younger Officers took their place and armed the troops with better ammunition.

There is no such thing as stopping power. 158 RNL will penetrate to the vitals and that's what "stops" people. Put it in the vitals, it works. Miss the vitals, it doesn't. That's true of every round.

 

[rockquarry]

There is no such thing as stopping power. 158 RNL will penetrate to the vitals and that's what "stops" people. Put it in the vitals, it works. Miss the vitals, it doesn't. That's true of every round.

Good answer and true statement, but not something the argumentative and/ or theorists want to hear.

 

[LPD256]

I grabbed a box and took a couple of pictures. From 1973

 

[LPD256]

Here are some others. First photo is a reversed wadcutter my Dad and his trooper buddies experimented with. Kind of a hollow point on steroids along with an early Super Vel .45acp I carried in a Combat Commander. Next photo are some Remington. .357mags carried in a Model 19 including one we shot into the dirt just to see how it expanded in about 1976. Note the copper wavy jacket. Finally, this is what I carry in my 638. Hope someone enjoys this!

 

[jupiter1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Univibe View Post
There is no such thing as stopping power. 158 RNL will penetrate to the vitals and that's what "stops" people. Put it in the vitals, it works. Miss the vitals, it doesn't. That's true of every round.

Good answer and true statement, but not something the argumentative and/ or theorists want to hear.

If you read late nineteenth / early 20th century literature about ammunition effects, the term usually used was shocking effect. Apparently the thought was that bullets created some kind of shock when striking tissue that would disable an opponent. There was no way at that time to measure that, so tests such as Thompson- Lagarde attempted to find and measure shocking effect. The results of that primitive test were debatable but people came to a conclusion anyway, and that conclusion is still cited today.

Otherwise, ammunition was tested by shooting into spaced 1 inch pine boards. The results were measurable and bullet penetration was often cited in gun advertising of the time. Now, we have all sorts of modern equipment to study this; chronographs, gel tests, hi speed videos and now just recently, body cam videos of actual shootings. Even with all of this I can't come to any other conclusion other than shot placement and penetration are the most important factors in stopping an attack. Maybe those people shooting into pine boards had the answer all along.

With that, I'm not averse to using 38 RNL, 9MM FMJ or anything else that will punch through a human body.

 

[federali]

Trivia

Many posters made reference to the 200 grain, lead bullet loaded in the .38 Special. Perhaps it was just a regional nickname but these bullets were called "man-stoppers" in my part of the country. That the 200 grain bullet actually stopped men is subject to debate.

 

[bgrafsr]

I was issued .38 Spl. RN ammo when I hired on in 1972. All of us had old amo that was never changed out with newer stuff.
One night an Officer got into a gunfight with a subject, who fired at him, and he fired back. The 1st round barely made it out of the barrel, the 2nd round hit the guy in the chest and bounced off, and the 3rd round finally put him down.


We were given new ammo after that episode, and shortly afterwards we got new S&W Model 66's, although we had to stick with .38 Spl.



When I became the firearms instructor, I issued new ammo every 6 months to a year, and the old ammo was shot up for training. We went to the FBI load also, .38 Spl LHP SWC +P.

 

[ShivasIrons]

^^^ I wonder how old that ammo actually was before it was used?!^^^

 

[Jessie]

I remember being issued W-W .38 Special High Velocity Lubaloy 158-grain round-nose ammo in about 1973. Come to think of it, that was the only time I was ever issued ammunition (other than while in the Army). The rest of the time we bought our own ammo. Must have been something going on at that time to get the bean counters to purchase a bunch of ammo to hand out to the troops.

Nine or ten years later I worked for a state agency and just added ammunition to my monthly expense reports, complete with receipts, and was reimbursed about 6 weeks later for my out of pocket expenses. Being responsible for covering 38 of the state's 63 counties, I was on the road at least 3 days every week, so motels, gas, and meals were a lot more expensive than an occasional box of ammo for range qualifications.

Long time ago. I expect the boys and girls have state-issued credit cards now. There were times when my out of pocket expenses exceeded my monthly salary, back in the day.

It could have been worse...38 counties on horseback.
But, if you like the outdoors, not really worse.

 

[Pointblank2U]

We had an attempted Aircraft hijacking in the 80s and the police at the airport were still using 38 RN ammo. One of the officers attempted to shoot a tire out on the aircraft with his service revolver(M-19) and the bullet bounced off the tire. Another officer shot the same tire with a 357(don't know the bullet) and the tire went down in a hurry. During the gun battle another airport cop shot at the BG through the loading door window and the bullet also failed to penetrate. The Airport cops very soon after went to 357 rounds

I can tell you from personal experience, while in a pursuit, sitting on passenger side, a 357 Magnum from a 4 inch barrel did not blow out the tire. A 12 gauge did.

 

[Univibe]

Good answer and true statement, but not something the argumentative and/ or theorists want to hear.

That's because 99.5% of shooters either study "ballistics" or just repeat received wisdom.

You learn a lot more by examining autopsy and crime scene data, and talking to pathologists and ER doctors, than you do observing what happens when bullets hit blocks of gelatin or wet phone books.

All this plays into the general trend of wanting technological solutions to problems. Easier to buy a Magic Bullet, than it is to practice shooting and understand the serious limitations of relying on a firearm to defend yourself.

If you are shot with a bullet, and the bullet penetrates to and through a "vital organ," you will quit what you are doing and die either instantly, or very quickly, depending on what's hit. If you are hit somewhere else, or the bullet doesn't penetrate, you won't.

A .38 158 grain RNL will penetrate to the vitals. Indeed, it -- at least theoretically -- penetrates more and therefore better than those carefully engineered expanding bullets. If it is placed properly and penetrates a vital organ, it is as effective as any round you can name.


Most shot failures are not failures of expansion; they are failures of penetration.

That's why I'm one of those rare EDC people who loads his gun-of-choice with 9mm FMJ rounds. They will penetrate when others won't, and the placement is up to me (and a great deal of plain old luck).

 

[jupiter1]

I don't know what caliber / load East Cleveland PD issues. Most likely, some type of hollow point bullet was employed. The suspect remained active after many rounds were fired. There is no clue in the video as to how many bullets hit him and what was struck. The suspect seemed to react to bullet hits but there was no sign of shock effect until the suspect dropped to the ground. Will the ammunition be declared inadequate?

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcY2OHpVlnU[/ame]

Nov 05, 8:17 PM;Posted Nov 05, 5:58 PM

EAST CLEVELAND, Ohio — East Cleveland police officers fatally shot an armed man while responding to a rape accusation, police said.

East Cleveland Police Capt. Scott Gardner said the shooting happened about 3:45 p.m. Tuesday at the Coventry Park Apartments on Superior Avenue near Coventry Road.

He said officers were called to the area for a woman being raped. The man had shot the woman before police arrived, Gardner said.

Officers fired shots at the man, killing him, Gardner said. Gardner said he expected to release more information later in the night.

The man hit the woman in the head with his gun while grasping her hair. The officers then fired 11 gunshots at the man, who let go of the woman's hair.

The man, who was still holding the gun, dropped to the ground motionless as officers fired three more gunshots, the video shows.

Click Here For Full Story:

East Cleveland police fatally shoot man during rape investigation, police say - cleveland.com