Police like new M&P because ...

[stev32k]

I own Glock, M&P, Springfield, Les Baer, Colt, and CZ handguns in 9mm, .40 smith, and .45 ACP. I load my own ammo and shoot a lot - maybe 600 - 1,000 rounds some weeks.

I can honestly say I've never had reliability issues with any of them. They all go bang every time the trigger is pulled. Not counting the Les Baer and Colt 1911's the CZ 75 SP-01 Phantom 9mm is far and away the most accurate of the bunch. Using a shooting vise the CZ will put 5 shots inside a 3" circle at 25 yards. None of the others will come close to that. The M&P FS .40, Glock 9mm, and XD .40 will all shoot 4 - 5" groups at 25 yards. The M&P 9c is dead last with a 5 - 6" group.

As far as out of the box triggers the CZ is first in that category as well and the M&P last. The M&P FS .40 was so bad I replaced the factory trigger with Apex forward set sear parts and that gets it to first place. The CZ has an out of box trigger pull of 5.5 lbs and after about 200 rounds it dropped to 4.8 lbs. and is very smooth. The Glock and XD were about even in my opinion.

 

[MSG Glenn]

I remember when Model 10s, 14s, 15s and 19s were used, not for three or four years, but for an entire career. So, now we change out our M&P pistols to get the new one with the audible click reset all because someone wants to teach and facilitate what Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn both refer to as a "training scar," that of shooting to re-set. Stupid.

The audible click means nothing to all of the cops I know. I saw one of them yesterday & he wasn't even aware that it was there, lol. He said that he thought the new trigger was less gritty (which didn't bother him with the old one) & has that "breaking glass rod" feel when the trigger fires the gun similar to what he had on his rifle as an Army sniper which the old one (the one I now carry) didn't have. Not as pronounced of course but still there.

I don't think MPD made the update because of any improvements in the guns. This Chief we have seems to march to a different set of drums & decided a new issue was in order at a time when the PD is furloughing officers & crime is on the rise. Go figure.

 

[Jaymo]

Even though I own, and really like, a Ruger SR9, I've been seriously considering getting an M&P 9 and an XD 45.
Both guns shoot well and feel great in my hands, with the edge in comfortable feel going to the M&P. It feels like it was molded to my hand.
Glocks have never been comfortable in my hands, and have never shot well for me. So, I resisted the whole "perfection" Kool-Aid.

 

[MP9cBilly]

Apparently most find the Kool Aid quite delicious. I am merely pointing out MY experience. I think it is junk. I carry it DAILY and have shot 1000s of rounds through it. How about most people? Do they conceal carry it? Hmmm....wonder if those concealed carry M&Ps see half as much use as mine? I'm gonna say no...they probably ride in custom holsters. Mine? Mine's a working gun....not an object of worship.

Want to know what problems I've had? Use the search function. I have enumerated the many problems my agency has had with the M&P. Failures to fire, to extract, broken strikers, sights falling off, rusted slides, rusted mags, broken mag springs.....

Oh wait.....I still don't know what I'm talking about, right? Unlike many, I don't base my opinion of the M&P line on what I've read. I laugh everytime I say something adverse about the M&P line and someone says "well I read that _____ Department hasn't had any problems in XX,XXX rounds". Really? Really?

Im sure there are plenty LEOs here that carry an M&P on duty. They can only attest to THEIR experience with the gun, and I'm sure many have had positive experiences. Now I'm sure most M&Ps in their well cushioned protected environment NEVER malfunction.

And before we even go there....my squad LT has us break them down and clean them once a week, along with the shotguns and rifles. Don't want to hear about poor maintenance.

Before we were issued the M&P we were issued the 4566. Loved it. Did I anywhere mention there was a better gun than the M&P? Nope....

Sorry to be so long winded....I understand that you guys love your M&Ps. Guess what? They aren't perfect. I base my opinion on personal experience with the gun in a tough environment, much tougher than what MOST folks here subject it to.....different people, different experiences. I think sometimes people take it too personal....almost as if I am personally attacking their decision to carry an M&P..if you like it carry it...is it perfect? Nope.

What cop fires thousands of rounds at the range through a gun hates? hahaha What a load of bull. I suppose your department pays for that ammo for no reason at all because you aren't spending your own money.

People, he's not a cop, he doesn't even own an M&P. He's a lying troll… IGNORE HIM. He's a bitter Glock Gen 4 owner and is pissed his wunder gun doesn't get the awe it used to.

 

[18DAI]

Atlanta PD is dumping the m&p and going to Glocks.

I just heard from a NCSHP Trooper in court this AM that the North Carolina Highway patrol is looking for new pistols to replace their m&p 357sig guns. Extraction issues that S&W evidently can't fix. IIRC NCSHP just got those guns in 2009.

Sig is rumored to be the front runner for a replacement. They had Sigs previously. The FNP is supposedly being tested as well.

Evidently not ALL Police like the m&p.

 

[viceunit]

Glock and S&W aggressively offer to replace an entire departmental pistol inventory to keep the lead in the marketplace. It boosts civilian sales. Shortly before I retired we had the same scenario occur. S&W came knocking at the door offering to replace all of our Glock 22 and 23 with their product. Then Glock gets wind of it and comes along with a replacement package of the then new Gen 4 pistols. Glock got the nod (we have been with Glock since 1990, main reason) and I was issued a new G23 six months before retirement. Our contract allows us to purchase your duty pistol upon retirement, so I got a new G23 for $50.00.

Whatever reason the departments give to the media: better trigger, sights, grips, blah, blah, blah, it comes down to how much inventory a department can get for their $$.

 

[Doug M.]

It is interesting to hear that NCHP is having trouble with their M&P .357s. I was in a class down there in 2008, and there were two guys from the department that shot like monsters. They loved it and shot the heck out of their pistols - many many rounds in training and testing.

 

[DocSunShine]

It is interesting to hear that NCHP is having trouble with their M&P .357s. I was in a class down there in 2008, and there were two guys from the department that shot like monsters. They loved it and shot the heck out of their pistols - many many rounds in training and testing.

Sounds like SOME of the guns had issues, a small majority I'm sure...

 

[checkmyswag]

It's generally agreed that removing a mag disconnect improves trigger pull slightly. I don't know if a gauge would prove it.

Why are police going to M&P?

Fits small, medium and large hands.
Consistent trigger pull.
Thumb safety or no thumb safety.
Oh, and S&W is throwing the guns at the LE market for super cheap.

 

[Rastoff]

It's generally agreed that removing a mag disconnect improves trigger pull slightly.

I don't know who it is that "generally agrees" with that statement, but their findings are psychosomatic. I could see how someone might have a perception of improved trigger pull once they spent money to have the mag disconnect removed. Even so, it would be false because the mag disconnect has no affect on trigger pull.

Here's how the trigger works in an M&P:
Smith & Wesson: How the M&P Trigger Works - YouTube
Here you can see how the mag disconnect has no affect on the trigger once a mag is inserted.

 

[SMMAssociates]

Rastoff:

+1....

With the disconnect active - with no magazine in the gun - it keeps the trigger bar and sear apart. When a magazine is inserted, the bit of metal that blocks them moves out of the way as a result of the magazine moving it. The trigger just isn't part of this mechanism at all, except in the sense that the mag disconnect keeps the trigger bar away from the sear.

No effect on the trigger action....

This is NOT the case in 1911's with the Colt-style firing pin block, nor is it related to the drop safety in the M&P slide that's actuated by the trigger bar.

(1911's with Swartz safety mechanisms are a tad different. The grip safety moves a pin into the slide to move the trigger block out of the way. This DOES NOT affect the trigger pull at all. The Colt block adds a smidge to the trigger weight, but if everything is working OK, most shooters would never notice, and few are capable of measuring the change either.)

My old M39 has a mag disconnect - very easy to remove/fix/clean. I'm not sure whether it has any effect on the trigger. I've had it set up both ways over the years (bought it before 1975), but don't remember any difference.

That video, btw, is excellent.

Regards,

 

[fire4606]

You guys might want to re watch your video. The magazine disconnect or as SMMA calls it, "that bit of metal" is another friction point.

Compare it to one without the magazine safety, it's empty space there instead of metal rubbing against metal, ie.. friction...

It may not be huge but similar to the 25 cent trigger jobs that are done all over the place it can make a difference

 

[Rastoff]

Compare it to one without the magazine safety, it's empty space there instead of metal rubbing against metal, ie.. friction...I

Rubbing against what exactly?

 

[Fastbolt]

You guys might want to re watch your video. The magazine disconnect or as SMMA calls it, "that bit of metal" is another friction point.

Compare it to one without the magazine safety, it's empty space there instead of metal rubbing against metal, ie.. friction...

It may not be huge but similar to the 25 cent trigger jobs that are done all over the place it can make a difference

The trigger safety lever tab only rubs against the rear of the trigger bar, deflecting it, when the magazine is out of the gun. "Friction" doesn't matter at that point because the gun isn't intended to fire. It isn't providing any "friction" when a magazine is in the gun and the trigger bar isn't touching the angled tab of the safety lever, which is when the gun is able to be fired.

Might as well worry about pulling the trigger in colder, denser air which has more "resistance".

I've had to remove aftermarket parts from some M&P's which people wanted to carry on & off-duty (to restore them to stock condition). In the last couple of instances both guys were frequent shooters (one was a firearms instructor) and each owned at least a couple of M&P's.

In each instance they were convinced they would be unable to shoot the guns as quickly, accurately and effectively once the aftermarket parts were removed. Once we went out to the firing line and I started running them through some increasingly demanding drills, taking their attention off their preconceived notions of "trigger feel" & "trigger reset" ... making them focus on good trigger control and normal trigger recovery ... their accuracy improved and they were able to shoot faster.

If some folks were to focus as much attention and effort on "improving" themselves, instead of trying to "improve" new guns, they might be more satisfied with things over the long run.

That's one of the reasons I prefer to use any particular shooter's gun when trying to teach some point, so they realize what can be done with their gun, in normal condition.

 

[redrock]

I've had to remove aftermarket parts from some M&P's which people wanted to carry on & off-duty (to restore them to stock condition). In the last couple of instances both guys were frequent shooters (one was a firearms instructor) and each owned at least a couple of M&P's.

In each instance they were convinced they would be unable to shoot the guns as quickly, accurately and effectively once the aftermarket parts were removed. Once we went out to the firing line and I started running them through some increasingly demanding drills, taking their attention off their preconceived notions of "trigger feel" & "trigger reset" ... making them focus on good trigger control and normal trigger recovery ... their accuracy improved and they were able to shoot faster.

If some folks were to focus as much attention and effort on "improving" themselves, instead of trying to "improve" new guns, they might be more satisfied with things over the long run.

That's one of the reasons I prefer to use any particular shooter's gun when trying to teach some point, so they realize what can be done with their gun, in normal condition.

There is so much wisdom in these couple of paragraphs. It really cuts through the noise and distraction of misguided digressions in to minutia that seems to be an integral part of most gun forums and gets to the heart of the matter. Great stuff, Fastbolt!

Instead of hoping to find some magical path to better shooting through superior hardware selection, most of us would be better served by simply focusing on how to become a better shooter. The really great shooters I've known were really great shooters with whatever you handed them. It might take them a little bit of time to acclimate to something new or different, but by gawd, they always seem to find a way to shoot it better than you dreamed possible.

Ever watch that guy Hickok45 on Youtube? It doesn't matter to him if you hand him a plastic gun, a metal gun, one with a hammer, one with a striker, or even one with a wheel that goes round and round. He doesn't care if it is 9, 40 or 45. Put a pile of ammo in front of him and he'll keep shooting until he figures out how to put the bullets where he is aiming.

Any of the major service platforms, loaded with any flavor of modern performance ammunition, can be made to work well. Some are a little easier to master than others, but in the end, they really are more similar than different. Blaming the hardware is always easier than being disciplined enough to invest the time in to mastering whatever gun you choose or are directed to carry. You can be the Indian, or you can keep blaming the bow or the arrows. Choice is yours.

 

[Rastoff]

I agree that good shooting is only accomplished through good trigger control. I also agree that, if the gun is working properly, you can shoot any gun fairly well with proper trigger control and concentration on fundamentals.

Changing the mechanics of the gun by installing new parts will not make you a better shooter. However, improving your trigger will help a good shooter get better.

That said, I never blame the equipment. If you do well, it's you. If you do poorly, it's still you.