Poor Man's Buffalo Gun

[Drm50]

I found my notes on the 43 Span RB.
Used blown out 348 win brass
387gr cast bullet from a Rapine mould as cast. 50:50 lead/WWs
16.5 gr Unique, tuft Dacron over powder
Win LRP
MV = 1350 fps ( according to book) I think this came from
Cartridges of the World by Barnes.

Never hunted this gun other than plinking a few ground hogs
but I wouldn't have been afraid to use it on deer. Don't forget
this is on BP action so stick close to book with smokeless.

 

[TIMETRIPPER]

It's hard to say where this gun came from, there are no markings on it from any nation, no stampings, other than inspection markings, nothing, not even a serial number.

The serial number may be on the side of the top tang, at the rear of the action. The butt stock has to be removed to view it. For some reason, I still remember that of my old roller, 10054 G. Or was it G 10054?

John

 

[Muley Gil]

I had a guy at the last cave city show, try and sell me a box of 43 Egyptian vintage ammo he was wondering what type gun it would fit.

he was not asking much, and I told him they would fit the old Remington rolling blocks if he could find some one with the gun,, they would jump at the chance to buy the gun

il keep my eves open for him this fall at the next show and if he still has them il get the op a box of bullets

.43 Spanish and .43 Egyptian are two different rounds.

 

[ParadiseRoad]

...Lucretia Borgia was mentioned in the original post...

...here she is sitting on Buffalo Bill's lap...

 

[jag312]

...Buffalo Bill's Rolling Block...

...Custer had one too...

George Custer took his Remington to the Little Big Horn in 1876. It was never recovered. It is believed to have been taken by one of the Sioux or Cheyenne warriors. Here is a photograph of the Sioux warrior and close friend of Crazy Horse, Touches The Clouds, taken in 1877. Is This Custer's rifle?

 

[DWalt]

No way to tell. There were many Remington RBs in use on the frontier. It's been said that there were almost as many Remington RB rifles used by the western buffalo hunters as Sharps rifles. And there were some RBs known to have been used by the buffalo hunters against the Indians in the famous 1874 Adobe Walls fight in the Texas panhandle.

 

[David LaPell]

I field stripped the rifle and took the buttstock off and found what I assume is the serial number on the left tang. I was surprised at how clean the gun is under the stock. I think wherever this gun was, it didn't see a lot of action or use because I have seen guns half its age in much worse shape.

 

[vonn]

Don’t think I have noticed before but it seems that all the people shown are carrying pistols for a cross draw. Any reason other than style? Maybe for horseback? Very cool pictures,any idea who the gents are with Buffalo Bill?

 

[ParadiseRoad]

Don’t think I have noticed before but it seems that all the people shown are carrying pistols for a cross draw. Any reason other than style? Maybe for horseback? Very cool pictures,any idea who the gents are with Buffalo Bill?

...caption under the photo...

Tintype photo: William F. Cody with Lucretia Borgia across his lap. Front and center, Windham Thomas Wyndham-Quin, Lord Adare (later the 4th Earl of Dunraven), 1841 – 1926. Back: Lt. Francis Michler and Lt. Walter Scribner Schuyler, 1871.

...more about the Earl of Dunraven at the link below...

Earl of Dunraven - Rocky Mountain National Park (U.S. National Park Service)

 

[LoboGunLeather]

...caption under the photo...

Tintype photo: William F. Cody with Lucretia Borgia across his lap. Front and center, Windham Thomas Wyndham-Quin, Lord Adare (later the 4th Earl of Dunraven), 1841 – 1926. Back: Lt. Francis Michler and Lt. Walter Scribner Schuyler, 1871.

...more about the Earl of Dunraven at the link below...

Earl of Dunraven - Rocky Mountain National Park (U.S. National Park Service)

The rifle shown on Cody's lap in the photo is almost certainly a Springfield, probably a Trapdoor, not a Remington Rolling Block.

Trapdoor Springfield rifles were sold by the Army to the general public during the Indian War years, typically $1.50 each. .45-70 ammo was frequently provided for free. Government policy during that period was to contain Indian tribes on reservations, and one of the tools used to accomplish that was encouraging the destruction of the buffalo herds by hide hunters supplying eastern industry with leather drive belts for heavy equipment. Buffalo robes were also popular for use in carriages and coaches to keep passengers warm during winter months.

Cody and others regularly guided large groups of "gentlemen hunters" on western expeditions for shooting buffalo, elk, and other critters.

 

[ParadiseRoad]

The rifle shown on Cody's lap in the photo is almost certainly a Springfield, probably a Trapdoor, not a Remington Rolling Block.

Trapdoor Springfield rifles were sold by the Army to the general public during the Indian War years, typically $1.50 each. .45-70 ammo was frequently provided for free. Government policy during that period was to contain Indian tribes on reservations, and one of the tools used to accomplish that was encouraging the destruction of the buffalo herds by hide hunters supplying eastern industry with leather drive belts for heavy equipment. Buffalo robes were also popular for use in carriages and coaches to keep passengers warm during winter months.

Cody and others regularly guided large groups of "gentlemen hunters" on western expeditions for shooting buffalo, elk, and other critters.

...Lucretia Borgia was well known to be a Trapdoor Springfield...I posted a photo of her since she was mentioned...as being a Trapdoor Springfield...in the OP's first post in this thread...

 

[DWalt]

I think Lucretia Borgia was a .50-70 trapdoor. What I have read was that the .50-70 trapdoors (along with ammunition for them) were essentially given by the Army (they were obsolete by then) to anyone who wanted to hunt buffalo as part of the Army's Indian eradication program. No buffalo = no food, no hides for tipis, etc.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

...Lucretia Borgia was well known to be a Trapdoor Springfield...I posted a photo of her since she was mentioned...as being a Trapdoor Springfield...in the OP's first post in this thread...

Thanks for correcting me on that. I will try to pay closer attention before I butt in again!

 

[ParadiseRoad]

Thanks for correcting me on that. I will try to pay closer attention before I butt in again!

...don't apologize...I'm often guilty too when posts get long and I'm in a hurry...

 

[HOUSTON RICK]

I like it when work arounds like this work out. good luck. Nice looking rifle.

 

[smoothshooter]

I like the rifle. Can't tell by looking at the photo...is that a Buffington or Buffington-style rear sight on it?

Frankly, though, I'm surprised Bill Cody even knew who Lucrezia Borgia was. He was not an educated man.

There were a lot of " Penny Novels ", and other publications around, even on the frontier.
And like most others on the frontier, Bill didn't stay out there all the time. He made good enough money that he could afford to take a coach or train back East a ways for a break, to drink, chase women, see friends, etc. maybe pick up an opera or girlie show every once in a while. He would have almost certainly seen advertising posters with Borgia's picture on them.

 

[Wyatt Burp]

Here's an Egyptian rolling block my dad bought for nine bucks from an ad in an early 60s gun magazine. It was a rusty wallhanger missing a buttstock. He made a new buttstock for it and put that ramrod in it. The bore is trashed. The faint abstract markings on it look like hieroglyphics. I played with this thing a lot as a kid pretending i was in the Foreign Legion, even though I don't know what they really carried.

 

[2152hq]

Neat old R/Blocks.
If it's in 43 Spanish caliber and chambers rounds made from 348WCF brass,,either rear end of the chamber is very much worn oversize or the chamber has felt the cutting action however slight of a .348 chambering reamer.
The latter action to just slightly enlarge the head portion of the chamber so that it will in fact accept cases made by simply necking up 348 brass.

The 348 case is too large in dia at the head/base to normally chamber in the 43Spanish. Trying to size them down in a set of normal reloading dies will accomplish the decrease right up to the solid base.
The usual route then is to lathe cut the outside of the base the few .000 extra diameter so they will fit.
Trying to use the reloading die to swage the solid case head down will usually crack the large dia mouth die, even if your press could do the job.

The case is also shorter than a 43Spanish when done.
**Ivan the Butcher mentioned these points in a post above.

The best way to go is use the 43Spanish Basic Case and form them in your reloading dies.

If you do want to use 348's, I'd go one step further and use 50-110WCF brass (STarline).
The 348 is based on the 50-110WCF.

You still have to do the outside base trimming as with the 348WCF unless your chamber will accept the unaltered base of the 348case.
But the OAL will be correct with the longer parent case.

LEE made or still makes 43 Spanish dies. I've never used them in that caliber. I do know some of the early production had the shell holder that was cut too 'thin' to accept the standard thickness rim of the 43Sp cartridge. It instead was cut for the very slightly thinner rim of the 348WCF.

Nice lead launchers!

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I played with this thing a lot as a kid pretending i was in the Foreign Legion, even though I don't know what they really carried.

Louie Lamoure was in the Spanish Foreign Legion between the wars. They carried Rolling Blocks where he was (Morocco area).

Ivan

 

[Bakebfr480]

I cast bullets for and handload the 43 Spanish.