Popularity of the 40 S&W?

[Loyaljeeper]

The agency I work for is still buying .40 ammo and there are no plans to switch. In fact, we just sent a “kid” through the academy and he said .40’s were still the number one caliber on the range with cadets from all over TN.

 

[yfdcap]

I continue to enjoy the 40 very much. Reloading really makes it shine in my book. I also still have several LEO and Boarder Patrol friends who's departments still use them. One is also a weapons instructor and qualifies the department. The switch to 9 is for the most part, to help people qualify. Plain and simple. Not because its a better round. They will be switching soon. I am ok with the big drop off by folks though. Great deals to be had on a great caliber. Brass is almost free. Down side, there will not be as many new models coming out.

 

[TripLeader]

I wonder if the trend to 9mm instead of .40 S&W may be partly due to the (at least anecdotal, if not more evidence of the) 9mm Glock being more reliable than the .40 Glock. While obviously not a problem on every .40 pistol, there were malfunctions caused when a weapon light was mounted, and then also the unsupported chamber issues.

Those problems would lead one to choose a the 9mm Glock 17 over the .40 Glock 22. Then with the overall popularity of Glocks, the .40 caliber fades out while the 9mm takes the stage. That trend then followed to the rest of the pistol world.

Just a theory.

 

[yfdcap]

I wonder if the trend to 9mm instead of .40 S&W may be partly due to the (at least anecdotal, if not more evidence of the) 9mm Glock being more reliable than the .40 Glock. While obviously not a problem on every .40 pistol, there were malfunctions caused when a weapon light was mounted, and then also the unsupported chamber issues.

Those problems would lead one to choose a the 9mm Glock 17 over the .40 Glock 22. Then with the overall popularity of Glocks, the .40 caliber fades out while the 9mm takes the stage. That trend then followed to the rest of the pistol world.

Just a theory.

Those were early issues and have long been resolved.

 

[Laketime]

The 40 S&W was developed by coping the reduced 10mm load made for both female and slight built FBI agents.The new round was placed in a shorter case allowing the factory to utilize it in their wonder 9 mm line. personally I don't care for the round but recognize its appeal to those who want more than a 9mm. Since recoil is a turn off for every young shooter I speak to , I can't see it going any where soon.

 

[sigp220.45]

I came full circle with the 9mm during my 25 years in the FBI. I was issued a Sig 226 in the academy - I was in one of the first classes after the 1076 was shown the door. (I got a 220, gave the 226 back, and happily carried my .45 til I retired.)

I was one of a group of firearms instructors recalled to the Quantico mothership to test all the guns submitted for the .40 caliber contract in the mid-90s. I rated the HK USP Compact the highest but the Bu went with the Glock 22 and 23.

We were fine with the .40 Glocks for the next two decades. The .40 was initially derided as Short & Weak. I worked a bunch of shootings where it worked just fine, so I never shared that opinion.

One September day, 19 scumbags with boxcutters changed everything. Our ammo budget remained unchanged for the next ten years so we could buy computers and analysts to squint at them. My days as “the bullet fairy” with cases of ammo in my rig to use as “liaison enhancement” fodder with the cops in my territory ended.

Coincidentally the .40 somehow morphed from wimp to snappy powerhouse. 9mm loads improved. Someone decided it was just as good as the fearsome forty, and guess what? Its cheaper.

As I approached my Bureau expiration date in June of 2016 the die had been cast. SWAT guys started getting their Glock 17s, and the first of the Glock 19M general issue guns started appearing. Bye-bye .40 S&W.

Most agents I stay in touch with still have their old .40s. New agents get the 9mms in the academy, and the .40s in service are slowly being rotated out. At the last I knew, personally owned .40s were still allowed.

The switch had nothing to do with snappiness or guns breaking or any shortcomings of the .40 caliber. It was just economics. 9mm ammo is cheaper, and if it works as well why not use it?

The Bu has about 12,000 agents. Each shoots 1000 rounds per year in quals alone. (12 million rounds right there). Add in 10,000 rounds for each new agent in the academy, plus SWAT and HRT, and odds and ends like Citizen’s Academies and the National Academy and you’re looking at boxcars full of ammo every year. The cost of the guns themselves is chump change.

Now I’m a firearms instructor for a good sized Federal agency. They use .40s and have no plans to change.

I can walk into Cabelas and buy .32/20 and .30 Luger factory rounds, so I doubt .40 S&W will ever be in short supply.

 

[sigp220.45]

The 40 S&W was developed by coping the reduced 10mm load made for both female and slight built FBI agents.The new round was placed in a shorter case allowing the factory to utilize it in their wonder 9 mm line. personally I don't care for the round but recognize its appeal to those who want more than a 9mm. Since recoil is a turn off for every young shooter I speak to , I can't see it going any where soon.

Not exactly.

After the Miami shootout on 4/11/86 a couple things happened. .45 ACP pistols were immediately authorized, first with 185 grain Silvertips and later 230 grain Hydra Shoks. 9mms remained in service, but the move to 147 grain ammo began.

A vocal group in the Bu firearms community advocated .45s for all. Another opted for a newer round - the 10mm.

Full power 10mm ammo was never issued to agents. There was no issue with excessive recoil or female agents or wimpy little accountants.

The fledgling ballistics research unit started with the 10mm and the 180 grain bullet. They shot it into ballistic gel at increasing velocities until it did exactly what they wanted, which was at about 950 fps. Then they put out a bid request for a few million of them.

At the time, the Model 13 .357 loaded with .38 +P (and the option for .357 Silvertips) was the predominant handgun in the Bureau. The thinking was to have the same setup with the 10mm - normal carry would be the 180/950 load, with the option for the big stuff if needed. We also bought a boatload of HK MP5/10mm subguns.

The 1076 was actually a popular gun, and many guys hung on to theirs until they were forced to return them.

Of course, someone soon figured out you didn’t need that big 10mm case to do the 180/950 thing and the .40 S&W was born. The Bu then bought in with everybody else.

 

[Muss Muggins]

The 40 S&W was developed by coping the reduced 10mm load made for both female and slight built FBI agents.

I never met a slight built FBI agent, female or otherwise . . .

 

[Laketime]

Not exactly.

After the Miami shootout on 4/11/86 a couple things happened. .45 ACP pistols were immediately authorized, first with 185 grain Silvertips and later 230 grain Hydra Shoks. 9mms remained in service, but the move to 147 grain ammo began.

A vocal group in the Bu firearms community advocated .45s for all. Another opted for a newer round - the 10mm.

Full power 10mm ammo was never issued to agents. There was no issue with excessive recoil or female agents or wimpy little accountants.

The fledgling ballistics research unit started with the 10mm and the 180 grain bullet. They shot it into ballistic gel at increasing velocities until it did exactly what they wanted, which was at about 950 fps. Then they put out a bid request for a few million of them.

At the time, the Model 13 .357 loaded with .38 +P (and the option for .357 Silvertips) was the predominant handgun in the Bureau. The thinking was to have the same setup with the 10mm - normal carry would be the 180/950 load, with the option for the big stuff if needed. We also bought a boatload of HK MP5/10mm subguns.

The 1076 was actually a popular gun, and many guys hung on to theirs until they were forced to return them.

Of course, someone soon figured out you didn’t need that big 10mm case to do the 180/950 thing and the .40 S&W was born. The Bu then bought in with everybody else.

Being a user of the 10mm from the conception of the Brent Ten, I remember all too well how and why the 10mm almost faded into darkness. With all do respect ,your post seems an attempt to rewrite history on the need for reduced FBI loads .These reduced FBI loads that had been out for a year is what got the engineers at S&W thinking.Hence the .40 S&W.

 

[Laketime]

I never met a slight built FBI agent, female or otherwise . . .

Go to Boston , some I met looked like librarians .

 

[serger]

The 40 S&W isn't going anywhere. It's on the shelves and
reloaded a lot.

FWIW, I've been spouting about the LEO trade in 40's for at
least a year. The agencies who are FBI wannabe's are dropping
their 40's as fast as they can convince those with the purse
strings to let them.

SO as a civilian, I've been monitoring sales of surplus cop guns
and as an example bought a Glock 22 for $308.00 in my hands.
I also picked up SIG 229's for less than $350.00 each. And a
SIG P226 for $438.00. That is in my hand costs for all of them.
(And, except for the glock they all came with at least 3 magazines)

The 40 will be around for a long time. Too many out there and
they don't wear out sitting in a safe or dresser drawer. You
ought to buy it on the dip and use the extra money for ammo.

 

[Rule3]

You left out .357 Sig, which would be termed "too expensive . . . "

And the 45 GAP!

 

[sigp220.45]

Being a user of the 10mm from the conception of the Brent Ten, I remember all too well how and why the 10mm almost faded into darkness. With all do respect ,your post seems an attempt to rewrite history on the need for reduced FBI loads .These reduced FBI loads that had been out for a year is what got the engineers at S&W thinking.Hence the .40 S&W.

No need to rewrite it since I was there. I will, however, correct fallacies when I see them. If you have some info that “female and slightly built” FBI agents ever were issued (or even tested with) full bore 10mm I’d love to see it. Somehow these same spindly agents managed to also qualify with the 14” 12 gauge 870 with buckshot and slugs ( no reduced recoil stuff!)

The Bureau downloaded the 10mm because it did what they wanted it to do. That these downloaded 10s lead to the .40 isn’t in dispute. The rationale for it apparently is, thanks to internet speculation that somehow becomes accepted as fact.

I know the idea that agents couldn’t handle the mighty 10’s recoil is a cherished piece of lore but it just isn’t so. I knew the guys and they saw the full 10 as a special issue item, much like .357 rounds were. They started with a bullet and a goal of what it was supposed to do in ballistic gel. When they got there, they stopped. It is just that simple.

 

[Calliope]

The only time I enjoyed shooting the 40 was using it as a practice round in converted Glock 10mms. With a quality barrel accuracy was outstanding and recoil soft.
That was back when 40 brass was everywhere.

 

[TomkinsSP]

I never met a slight built FBI agent, female or otherwise . . .

Arnold Epstein (Biloxi Blues reference) used to work in the New York office, 5'4" 98 pounds of Mafia busting dynamite.

 

[yfdcap]

I never met a slight built FBI agent, female or otherwise . . .

Welcome to the new world.

 

[AlHunt]

What do you mean by "Glocked brass"?

At least the early Glocks, maybe more current ones and some other firearms have an unsupported chamber area near the breech end at the ramp. It creates a small bulge (or smile) right at the rim. You can get a "bulge buster" die to iron it out but it still creates a weak area that can blow out.

 

[AlHunt]

You left out .357 Sig, which would be termed "too expensive . . . "

Also the "King of Calibers" for self defense.

Well, I think so, anyway.

 

[SMSgt]

And the 45 GAP!

Florida HP carries the GAP and is happy with it. They bought it for the exact reason for which it was developed--smaller women's hands.

 

[SMSgt]

I would also ask, why is law enforcement abandoning the forty?

Simple--$$$. As for the comment about Glocked brass, I've collected bags of discarded .40 cases over the last few years, some hot out of Glocks, and none are "Glocked" nor bulged.