Popularity of the 44 Smith & Wesson Russian

[P.44]

GREAT & very interesting thread !

So -after a bit searching- I found out:
You can read the complete book
Gould: The Modern American Pistol and Revolver (1888 !) on-line
The modern American pistol and revolver. Including a description of modern pistols and revolvers of American make; : Gould, Arthur Corbin, 1850-1903 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

P.44

 

[BMur]

Various sources

P.44,

The listing you posted is a great reference but we must remember that in order to perform accurate research you must use as many references as possible. You will find "many" revisions and often a book that has been as an example copyrighted in say 1904 that has been revised in 1906, 1910, 1912, 1915, and 1918....So you might be reading a book that has been edited so many times that you are missing out on the authors original intent. The information then becomes inaccurate. Contract editing is an author's nightmare. I've been there.

Example: The Himmelwright book that was written originally prior to 1905 was revised several times and if you refer solely to that reference you will believe that the "miracle" shots were performed off hand. When actually the reference article I posted is the "Root source" of the later published accuracy of the 44 Russian pistol with 6 1/2" barrel. Unknown to the reader of the later edited version? Those posted and charted results were actually performed 30 years prior with Black Powder loads, with a shoulder stock, sand bag rest, and a "scope" mounted on the gun!!!....So,, that's a distortion of the facts that was edited out of later manuals...Revisions often do that by streamlining information. So you have to read "ALL available resources"!


You also miss the boat if you only read early references since the Smokeless change is not documented until after the 1908 revision. So you must actually read several revisions in order to see the big picture. That's how research works. Putting the "Edited" pieces together.

As a published author I personally think its criminal what contract editors do to your original work. They basically cut it to pieces until you don't even recognize your work.

Murph

 

[BMur]

Bullets chosen for Accuracy test?

I was doing a little more reading and decided to go with a 200 Grain Flat Nose and the original 175 Grain Heeled bullet.
See Photo 1

I guess a World Record was achieved with the 205 Grain round nose bullet so I'm trying to get close to that design in addition to the original heeled 175 Grain Target bullet. So the 200 Grain FN is a pretty darn close match to the World Record holding bullet. I'm also going to try several powder loads and bullet seating depths with that bullet at the 25 yard target. See which load performs the best.

See photo 2

Comparison of the 200 Grain with the standard heavy round nose 246grain. More case volume in the 44 Mag cases trimmed down but still not enough to match the Balloon head cases that will allow 27 grains of FFFG with the 200 grain Flat nose. The Mag cases only allow 23 grains compressed and the heavy only 19 grains compressed.

Photo 3 Is the 2 cavity LEE Mold that I decided to use for the medium weight bullet test.

Once my target mold arrives in the mail I'll mold and load them all up.

Murph

 

[Herky Bird]

For more specific data to Carlin, Reynolds, and Himmelwright long range test one can reference Outing Magazine Volume 41 1902-1903 on page 516. According to Himmelwright's essay in 'Guns, Ammunition, and Tackle,' this was conducted in the summer of 1890.
Side note, I believe this test as attested in A.C. Gould's book might be the earliest published use of a telescopic sight on a handgun.

 

[Oyeboteb]

Here's a fun old 'IDEAL' 429-er, don't know the weight, but will cast some up soon and find out.

Looks to be a close kin to the two in Murph's old period Line Drawing.

Hosted on Fotki

 

[BMur]

New Bullet

Phil,
I think it's this bullet on the old Ideal listing. It's definitely a heavy at 251 grains. Should shoot well in the long barrel.

Yours though looks like it might be a bit lighter. The Base of the bullet looks smaller. So 225ish?

Murph

 

[Oyeboteb]

Phil,
I think it's this bullet on the old Ideal listing. It's definitely a heavy at 251 grains. Should shoot well in the long barrel.

Yours though looks like it might be a bit lighter. The Base of the bullet looks smaller. So 225ish?

Murph

Good call Murph!

I had to root around some to find the Mold to check, but, indeed - it is the "429 436"..!

They did sometimes change some details on these old ones while keeping the same Number over time.

Might have been folks wrote in saying "Make that bottom driving band a little less tall please!", and they did...( just a guess...)

 

[BMur]

Custom bullet

I agree Phil,

The oversized lube grooves are a great feature and the dome head would take this round further down range In theory more accurately as compared to say a Wadcutter. I'd like to see a range report on this one using black powder full loads.

Murph

 

[BMur]

Target Mold Arrived

My Target Mold arrived today. It's an absolute treasure. Notice you can reverse the core insert to manufacture both a heeled Bullet or a hollow base bullet. You can also slide the core back and forth to change bullet weight so it's a great mold.

The catalog photo is a later bullet reference that actually ID's the lighter bullets as UMC design. That's news to me. This would be a pre-1911 listing and likely right around 1900. Also some very unusual bullets are listed as well as the World Record bullet of 205 grain RN.

Interesting to note that this World Record holding bullet was actually replaced by a Semi-Wad cutter with gas check soon thereafter. So the original round nose mold I would imagine would be as rare as it gets!

Murph

 

[6518John]

I have never shot these old guns and cartridges or really been fan of them either. But I absolutely love reading these threads and learning about them.

Thank all of you who contribute in this section of the forum. Your posts are absolutely fascinating.

 

[Helipat13]

Hi MurpH

I'm awaiting your result on target 25 yard .

Please keep us informed

Today i got excellent group with your recommendation : 15 gr 3fg , Starline shell , .433 Round ball 120 Gr on powder


i love this revolver .

I waiting accurate mould 429.172 & 429 -115

I wish you a merry Christmas
Patrick

 

[BMur]

Dialed in

Hi Patrick,

Outstanding work! I think you have your gun dialed in with Gallery type loads. 2 inch groups at 20-25 meters means you are there. To better test your load you should use a red dot in the center of the target. You can just cut a small red circle and tape it if you want? That improves your sight vision.
If the group tightens even more to say 1 1/2"? You have hit the perfect load. You should log it. If not then try a little soft lube right before shooting on the bullets and just inside the brass case with a Q-tip. Guaranteed to tighten your group.

I'm still loading rounds. I just got my target mold in the mail so I want to load some of those also. When I go shooting it's an all day event for me. I'm ready with my 38-44 Target and have my 200 grain load ready for the 44 Russian. So once I get the 160 & 175 target loads ready? I'll be good to go.

I did also get side tracked a little cuz I'm working up loads for my Frontier S&W DA in 44 WCF to test that gun as well. Probably be ready right after the New Year.

Merry Christmas to you also!

Murph

 

[nbedford]

GREAT & very interesting thread !

So -after a bit searching- I found out:
You can read the complete book
Gould: The Modern American Pistol and Revolver (1888 !) on-line
The modern American pistol and revolver. Including a description of modern pistols and revolvers of American make; : Gould, Arthur Corbin, 1850-1903 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

P.44

Wow, that is a great find! Thank you.

 

[BubbaShakers]

Also of possible interest to the topic at hand on archive.org:

The Art of Revolver Shooting by Walter Winans.

There are several late 19th/early 20th century firearms books from this era and earlier, scanned from originals in the Library of Congress.

The copyrights on these have all expired, and some of these are available as reprints from various if you want hard copies. The 1894 edition of the Gould book above was put out in a fancy leatherbound edition by Palladium a while back and sometimes shows up on ebay for less money than a "print on demand" reprint from amazon.

 

[applefish]

Found some old Union Metallic Cartridge company catalogs from 1896 and 1905.
The best part it they have the old load data, with powder measurements and bullet weights!

It's interesting to see that there were two types of gallery cartriges for the 44 russian.


The standard 44 russian load looks to be a 256 gr bullet on 23 grains of powder.
The gallery 44 russian load could be bought in either with either a 110 gr round bullet, or a grooved conical bullet also weighing 110 gr. Both were seated on 7 grains of powder. Interesting that the grooved conical bullet was also 110 gr, it would be a very short bullet if it was .429"!


For the 38-44 target standard load, the grooved bullet is 146 grs sitting on 20 gr of powder.
The 38-44 gallery load is a 70 gr round ball on 6 gr of powder.

 

[BMur]

Great Reference!!

Outstanding Reference Applefish!

It's amazing how many different loads you could find for the old Smith & Wesson Revolvers. Even Hand ejectors had Gallery loads.

I've found that Winchester loads were typically the hottest followed by UMC, then Peters and finally U.S Cartridge Co. There are actually others but they were not common. Like Eley, American Cartridge Company and Phoenix. Just to add a few. A few in Canada also if you were riding the Great Northern Rail.

Murph

 

[Nagloc68]

Advice on South Australian Model 3 44 Russian

New to this forum so I'll introduce myself. I'm an Aussie living in Chicago and starting my personal collection of Australian firearms, especially Lithgow examples. At the risk of driving up prices, I need some advice on Model 3s. A recent auction had several South Australian Model 3s listed. I bid on one, but it was my first ever auction bid and I was in a meeting so I absentee bid and lost. . One of the model 3s is being resold, not the one I bid on, but another example. The gun is has some mismatched numbers and was refinished at some point. Its a nice example, but not as pristine as I would target. How do I think about collecting - do I put this rare gun in my collection while I wait, or should I remain patient and disciplined for a better example. Readers of this forum probably know there are only 310 examples in existence. Thanks

 

[TripLeader]

Thank you guys for posting all this info. The link to the book is an incredible find.

I am the owner of an heirloom New Model 3 in .44 Russian. This stuff really helps me appreciate it more.

My old revolver:
S&W New Model 3 in .44 Russian (Pics Added Post 7)

 

[Oyeboteb]

New to this forum so I'll introduce myself. I'm an Aussie living in Chicago and starting my personal collection of Australian firearms, especially Lithgow examples. At the risk of driving up prices, I need some advice on Model 3s. A recent auction had several South Australian Model 3s listed. I bid on one, but it was my first ever auction bid and I was in a meeting so I absentee bid and lost. . One of the model 3s is being resold, not the one I bid on, but another example. The gun is has some mismatched numbers and was refinished at some point. Its a nice example, but not as pristine as I would target. How do I think about collecting - do I put this rare gun in my collection while I wait, or should I remain patient and disciplined for a better example. Readers of this forum probably know there are only 310 examples in existence. Thanks

I would say, hold out for an example which has not been re-finished.

Mis-matched Numbers, hard to guess from here, other than, if it is common with these from their Armorers doing that at-the-time, then, it is not as big of a "minus" as it would be otherwise.

But, of course matching Numbers will always be the most highly regarded.