Possible 4th gen?

[Shorty 45 MK2]

this post got me thinking why I don't like polymer guns....and I came to the realization that it's not the polymer frame I dislike...it's the crappy triggers....I don't like STRIKERS......I have a polymer frame gun that I like a lot and shoot really well...but it is a DA/SA hammer fired...Sig pro 2022....a S&W 4513 polymer frame DA/SA hammer version.....I'm there

Yep, same here. Granted the Walther P99AS has a pretty good trigger that almost feels "real", maybe TTSH can comment on the SW99 models?

 

[Shorty 45 MK2]

I find it funny that folks say that metal frame pistols have no market.

Sig Sauer and Beretta are not only continuing to make metal framed DA/SA guns but they are designing new ones and bringing back old ones into production.

S&W of today is a shadow of it's former self.

Yep, it's weird that Beretta and SIG "can" but S&W "can't".

 

[TTSH]

I came to the realization that it's not the polymer frame I dislike...it's the crappy triggers....I don't like STRIKERS.

Yep, same here. Granted the Walther P99AS has a pretty good trigger that almost feels "real", maybe TTSH can comment on the SW99 models?

Don't get hung up on any one characteristic when trying to figure out why our beloved 3rd Gens are so much more desirable to us than S&W's modern plastic wonderguns. It's not any one thing... it's everything.

And just to be clear, the reasons for my interest in SW99 variants have little to do with what design characteristics I would most desire in a new S&W pistol. Rather, it's more a part of the S&W historical thing, both business aspect-wise and technical development-wise, that I find so interesting. It's also why I own (and am still acquiring) certain Sigma variants as well as some of the current production plastic wonders. And let's not forget my long-standing interest in Walther pistols. That has something to do with it.

But all that said, I really like the SW99 series pistols... and I do prefer them to S&W's current M&P's.

 

[Miami_JBT]

Yep, it's weird that Beretta and SIG "can" but S&W "can't".

When folks bring up the classic arguments as to why S&W can't I laugh.

"It would be to pricey, no one would buy it!"

Sig Sauer continues to produce standard production guns and charge $700+ for them and make $1,500+ guns and folks buy them like they're going out of style. The Sig Mk25 for example easily goes for around $1,000 and they sell fast. The X Series guns are insanely priced and they can't be kept on store shelves. The difference between that model and a normal P226 is a sticker, anchor logo, and marketing.

Sig Sauer just announced that they're bringing back the P225. a compact single stack 9mm. It is between a 3919 and a 3906 in size. No really use for it in LE yet folks will go nuts for it simply because Sig is bringing it back into production and it will not be "cheap".

"But there isn't a market for metal framed DA/SA guns anymore!"

Really? Then why is Beretta and Sig Sauer still making them and making new models? Sig just won a number of LE contracts with their new P227. A double stack .45 ACP gun. They sell for over a grand and yet LE are buying them and so are civilians. Also they released the P224. A subcompact version of the classic P226.

Beretta just released compact versions of the 92FS series guns. These are new designs because they come with light rails and all the features of the new production lines like the 92A1, which is brand spanking new.

Smith & Wesson could produce guns like these....

They would sell and sell well.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Wilson Combat's 92 is backordered..... at IIRC.....$1300.

Nice gun but not much different from the Elite II of a decade ago...............

With Smith I'm guessing......produce and sell one reintroduced 3rd Gen....... make $100 or for the same effort/cost make and sell 4 new M&Ps and make $300.........

what's your business model.........?????

 

[Miami_JBT]

Wilson Combat's 92 is backordered..... at IIRC.....$1300.

Nice gun but not much different from the Elite II of a decade ago...............

With Smith I'm guessing......produce and sell one reintroduced 3rd Gen....... make $100 or for the same effort/cost make and sell 4 new M&Ps and make $300.........

what's your business model.........?????

Then explain how and why Beretta and Sig Sauer are staying in the game? Sig has the P250, P320, and SP2022 out and they sell well yet it is their metal frame guns raking in the cash. Beretta is in the same boat with the PX4 versus the 92 series guns.

The M&P isn't what it's cracked up to be. Agency after agency is dropping it and going to the one true plastic fantastic.... Glock. For example,

Texas DPS Ditches S&W M&P Handguns Over Reliability ...

LA Sheriff's Department Pulls M&P Pistols | Gun Nuts Media

Atlanta PD Drops M&P Pistols and Transitions to Glock Pistols - The Firearm Blog

NC State Troopers may replace 1,600+ problem-prone M&P Pistols ...

etc.... the list goes on and on.

The M&P is not a good product. It is prone to rust, the 9mm models have accuracy issues with horrible fitting barrel hoods, bad QC, and a bad track record.

Somehow Sig Sauer figured out how to stay competitive in the US Market making metal framed guns in the US and seem to be doing well.

S&W is faltering and failing.

 

[TTSH]

Somehow Sig Sauer figured out how to stay competitive in the US Market making metal framed guns in the US and seem to be doing well.

S&W is faltering and failing.

Is Sig really competitive in the US market against the likes of S&W and Glock? I'm asking because I honestly don't know the answer. Personal observations and anecdotal evidence suggests otherwise, but actual hard figures are tough to come by.

Personally, I don't care that much about Sig. I've always said I'd like to buy a new P227 if/when they ever become MA-compliant. I've considered the P220 (mainly used ones) in the absence of a MA-compliant P227. I like the P226 now with the thinner grips, but there are other reasons I'll probably never own one.

I only ask because some folks say that Sig proves that S&W could go back to making all-metal handguns (other than 1911's) and do just fine on them in terms of sales and return on investment, etc. for the stockholders. I don't know if that's true or not, but I question whether Sig is the proof that S&W is making a mistake not pursuing the all-metal pistol market beyond its 1911's.

 

[KSDeputy]

I completely agree with you about DA/SA pistols. Most of the ones I own are DA/SA, the CS 45 I carry is DA/SA. My Walther's are DA/SA. My new BERSA satin nickel .380 & .22lr are DA/SA. I was trained on a 645 when we changed from .357 revolvers to semi-auto. I have my duty 4506 with only 50 rounds through it. I shot my neighbor's DA only 9mm. I don't care for DA only pistols. I want a pocket gun, and the M&P .380 is just the one I like. I suppose I could make an exception once. The stainless PPK is too expensive to just carry around the farm.

 

[hAkron]

I believe that the 2nd and 3rd gen S&W guns were fairly expensive, and somewhat unpopular on the civilian market when they were being produced. It wasn't until after production started to wind down that the popularity grew...most likely because of so many inexpensive specimens being liquidated in the civilian market - trade ins and dusty unsold stock.
M&P's sell well in both civilian and law enforcement markets. They are inexpensive to make, and have fewer parts than their overbuilt forebearers.

 

[ladder13]

Let me know when Sig produces revolvers.

 

[BAM-BAM]

About IIRC 50-60% of homes in America have a firearm in them.......

In the highest Concealed Carry states only 7-9% of the population has permits.

Pennsylvania has about 800,000 deer hunters ....... ( down from over 1,000,000) out of a population of 12,000,000.... about 5-6%

NRA membership 4-5 million out of 312,000,000

How many belong to this Forum........160,000???????


IMHO those of us who have an interest in guns are a very small minority.....but...... there are a lot of folks who want to have a "personal protection weapon"...........

We've all been in our LGS when these folks walk in...........

With 30+ years of watching.... folks ask to see

1) What the local police are carrying....was a real mix of stuff until Glock showed up..........

2) What's most popular on TV and in the movies..........

70s-80s "Lethal Weapon" "Diehard"......Beretta's, Sigs Smiths

80-90s and beyond ..... Glocks......

Add in the fact that Glocks are generally "less expensive"..............

Lot's of Glocks and it's prodigies (Smith M&Ps etc.)that can compete on price ......... get sold .....

Sure Beretta and Sig are still selling "metal" guns.........but both are trying to find a gun that can compete with the Glock and the S&W M&Ps..... only so many ways to build a gun..... and Patents are hard to get around............

A 4th gen 3914 with polymer frame would be neat...... but I'd still like it to have 2nd or 3rd gen wood grips.............just old fashion I guess..

 

[petepeterson]

I would be on board with a TDA, polymer-framed 3914, as well, if it saves weight and functions correctly. I wouldn't trade my current 3914 for it, though.

 

[TTSH]

I believe that the 2nd and 3rd gen S&W guns were fairly expensive, and somewhat unpopular on the civilian market when they were being produced. It wasn't until after production started to wind down that the popularity grew...most likely because of so many inexpensive specimens being liquidated in the civilian market - trade ins and dusty unsold stock.

Not having been paying much attention due to circumstances beyond my control during the 2nd and 3rd Generation years, I'll have to take your word for it. But it does make me think again about how I came to the realization in early-2014 that slightly used 3rd Gens were an outstanding bargain compared to any and all brand new modern plastic wonderguns.

It also makes me wonder how if life circumstances had been a little different and less challenging for me, would I have been a brand new full-price 3rd Gen collector?

It's impossible for me to ever know. Best I can do now is try to make up for all that lost time.

 

[TTSH]

Add in the fact that Glocks are generally "less expensive"...

Except in places where they are "prohibited for dealer sale" such as the loony PRM. Here, if you want a new one, they cost about double (if you can even find one).

Lot's of Glocks and it's prodigies (Smith M&Ps etc.) that can compete on price... get sold.

Sure Beretta and Sig are still selling "metal" guns.........but both are trying to find a gun that can compete with the Glock and the S&W M&Ps...

That be a fact.

I'm not so sure what Beretta is thinking these days. Around here, the 92 and variants are still its biggest sellers. But Sig seems determined to compete with the big boys in the cheap plastic wondergun marketplace... albeit while still tapping the all-metal gun market for what it's worth.

Could it be that Sig sees itself as one of the few sustainable survivors in the American non-1911 all-metal handgun marketplace? Or do they just want to be all things to all people regardless of pricing, profits, consumer demand or consumer wishes?

I've said it many times before: Sig confuses me! What is their focus? What do they want to be? Specialists or generalists? A boutique specialty shop or a mainstream commodity supplier? Or both??? After all these years, I still don't know.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Except in places where they are "prohibited for dealer sale" such as the loony PRM. Here, if you want a new one, they cost about double (if you can even find one).


Don't understand....... can you explain???






I've said it many times before: Sig confuses me! What is their focus? What do they want to be? Specialists or generalists? A boutique specialty shop or a mainstream commodity supplier? Or both??? After all these years, I still don't know.

Sig lost me years ago ....weird guns,rainbow colors....... mine are all pre 95....... W. German 220, compact 245 and and my "safety net" 229 with half dozen mags and both .40 and .357sig barrels

 

[TTSH]

Don't understand....... can you explain???

Most Glocks are on our MA EOPS list (meaning okay for cops et al) but they do not meet the AG's ridiculous 1998 Consumer Protection Regs, so NO NEW GLOCKS FOR YOU (at least through dealers) if you live in the People's Republic.

There are various ways around the AG's Regs but they are not fit for printing here.

Sig lost me years ago ....weird guns, rainbow colors....... mine are all pre 95....... W. German 220, compact 245 and and my "safety net" 229 with half dozen mags and both .40 and .357sig barrels

Funny thing is that I *WANT* to understand and like Sig (mainly because I consider them a "local" manufacturing firm) but they sure don't make it easy. Their plastic guns that I can afford all suck (sorry Sig fans!)... and their all-metal guns are too damn expensive for me to buy, even when "used & abused"! And then I don't understand the crappy finish they put on their all-metal guns. What is that stuff and why does it chip and scratch even before you've taken a new one out of the display case?

Too many horror stories too, mostly about corrosion.

I want to like them... honestly!!! But they just won't let me.

 

[growr]

let's not forget another heavy weight in the steel gun DA/SA arena is the CZ 75B...
Randy

 

[hkcavalier]

growr I was going to mention those. The Turkish CZ clones that sell for less than $350 or even $300 in some cases. There are also some Turkish SIG clones that aren't bad. Of course the Taurus Beretta clones too.

I mention clones because yes, to make a S&W 3rd gen style gun in the US would be too expensive for the market. To the casual buyer it would be tough since the CZ and SIG derivatives are great guns. Would any of you buy a Turkish S&W 3rd gen clone?

 

[mauser9]

Learned a lot from all the posts on this thread. Checked out their line but could not get prices on their all metal pistols. What is the goin rate for say a Model 220 or other Sig all metal models today? Are the finishes poor compared to ones 20 years back?

 

[ISCS Yoda]

It's a funny thing but I always tell folks I have no problem with polymer stocks on rifles but dislike them on pistols. The first one I ever owned was a pocket 9mm - a Kel-Tec P9. A total *** but that's a different subject - I either misplaced it in my house or it was stolen - I don't know and don't care. My second polymer handgun was a SIG SP-2022 - and yes, if SIG can do it then S&W can surely do it. It's not my favorite pistol but it shoots well enough and I did score 246 out of 250 with that gun on my last CHL Instructor's test. So the traditional double action pistol dressed in polymer will work as long as someone is willing to make them.

I gotta check that Beretta out.............