Post Your WWI and WWII Firearms

[Cyrano]

French Pistols from two world wars. In the Franco-Prussian war of 1870, France was badly trounced. Their pistol at the time was the Mle (French abbreviation for 'model') 1822 T bis. The French, being on the losing side of the war, got their improved handgun, the Mle 73, out a lot quicker than Germany who waited until 1879 to introduce theirs, and it was somewhat modified in 1883. The Mle 73 was an excellent weapon and was in many respects superior to our own 1873, the SAA; it was double action and the mechanism was very sturdy. The left side plate could be unscrewed for access to the mechnism, if repairs were needed. Its only negative was the rather anemic 11mm cartridge. However it fought in the French conquest of the African and Indchinese colonies against very fierce opposition and its stopping power was never in question. It was used in WW I and a few were used in WW II by the Resistance. By that time ammo was very scarce and some had their chambers hogged out with a file until they would chamber the 45 ACP round. They ussually held together long enough that the user could obtain a better weapon.

For offices there was the Mle 1874, also in 11mm. It had a shorter barrel and fluted cylinder and was blued. The 1873 was left in the white, when black powder fouling was cleaned with water, primers were corrosive and the revolvers were carried in leather holsters cured with tannic acid. 1873s, usually have poor exteriors. The holsters for the Mles 73 and 74 had a pouch for spare ammo, with twelve cartridge loops for two reloads.

The 1873 was becoming increasingly obsolete and in 1892 a new revolver was introduced, in 8mm caliber. It was designed as a cavalry pistol. The cylinder swung out on the right side; for reloading it was held in the left hand along with the reins, while loading was done with the right hand. It had springs to provide friction to prevent the crane from closing and the cylinder from rotating when bouncing around on top of a horse. The holster originally had cartridge loops for spare cartridges like the earlier revolvers but were soon modified to carry three packets of six cartridge, or one reload per package. Many early holsters wre also modifed to carry 8mm packets. The Mle 92 had the same pivoting sideplate as the Mle 73, but the retaining screw was captive. Parts were numbered in the order in which they should be removed. This revolver was produced until the 1920s, and remained the official French handgun until the adoption of the Mle 3A automatic psitol in 1937.

Photos:
Mle 1822 T bis.
Mle 1873 with clamshell holster.
Mle 1874.
Mle 1892.
Mle 1892 lockwork.

 

[Cyrano]

World War I was a pistol war unlike any other. For hand to hand fighting in the narrow confines of a trench the over four feet long Berthier rifle with another 18 inches of 'la Rosalie' on the front was not what the situation called for. The need quickly outgrew the number of Mle 1873, 74 and 92 revolvers on hand.The arsenal at St Etienne was making Mle 92s as quickly as posible but it was also making desperately needed rifles and machine guns so its output was limited. France looked elsewhere. America had a thriving arms industry but the weapons were expensive and had to cross U boat infested waters. Nevetheless France obtained quantities of Savage Model 1907, 32 ACP automatics, apparently originally bound for Portugal but delivered to France. France also managed to divert a shipment of Colt Army Special revolvers in 38 Long Colt, bound for Greece. These can be identified by he Greek lettering on the bottom of the butt.

France then turned to Spain which had a large arms industry, for both revolvers and automatic pistols. The revolvers were termed the Mle 92 Espagnol, as they were chambered for the 8mm Mle 92 cartridge. Copies of both Colt and Smith & Wessons were made but they resembled the originals only externally; the mechanism was whatever could be produced at tle least cost. Over 485,000 of them were produced.

France contracted with the Spanish firm of Bonifacio Echeverria to produce their 'Star' pistol. This was a well made pistol in 32 ACP vaguely reminicent of the Mannlicher pistols. Echeverria produced 23,000 of them.

Then came the deluge. France conracted with Gabilondo y Urresti for their 'Ruby' pistol. This was a much simplified copy of the Browning 1903. It was chambered for the 32 ACP and held 9 rounds. France put increasing demands on Gabilondo y Urresti for more and more pistols, forcing them to sub-contract with other makers. Finally France also contracted with Spanish makers for Ruby-type pistols. Around 900,000 were made, by possibly 40 different makers. Quality varied from barely acceptable to dangerous. Parts were not interchangable, including the magazines. Later, pistols were coded with two letters in a circle and magazines were similiarly marked. This was not sufficient as some makers used several varieties of magazine. Finally many of the magazines were marked with the serial number of their pistol. If parts broke, spare parts could be fitted with some filing if one were lucky. As time progrssed, the worse examples either blew up or broke down and were discarded. They were a curse on the French armed forces and the last ones were finally dropped from some obscure French agency in 1973.

Photos:
Savage 1907 with holster.
Colt Army Special.
Mle 92 Espagnol with WW I holster.
Star.Ruby type with WW I holster.

 

[Texas Star]

Cyrano-


Thanks for all your fine photos and expertise. I'm always impressed.

 

[Toyman]

A second model HE in 455 caliber that never left the states, was shipped to Winchester July 29, 1915 to test 455 ammo.

 

[Absalom]

......
Then came the deluge. France conracted with Gabilondo y Urresti for their 'Ruby' pistol. This was a much simplified copy of the Browning 1903. It was chambered for the 32 ACP and held 9 rounds. France put increasing demands on Gabilondo y Urresti for more and more pistols, forcing them to sub-contract with other makers. Finally France also contracted with Spanish makers for Ruby-type pistols. Around 900,000 were made, by possibly 40 different makers. Quality varied from barely acceptable to dangerous. Parts were not interchangable, including the magazines. Later, pistols were coded with two letters in a circle and magazines were similiarly marked. This was not sufficient as some makers used several varieties of magazine. Finally many of the magazines were marked with the serial number of their pistol. If parts broke, spare parts could be fitted with some filing if one were lucky. As time progrssed, the worse examples either blew up or broke down and were discarded. They were a curse on the French armed forces and the last ones were finally dropped from some obscure French agency in 1973......

To add just a few tidbits to Cyrano's excellent dissertation, most of the Spanish gunmakers were actually more specifically Basque, concentrated in and around the Northern city of Eibar. I found a list of the dozens of manufacturers as of 1914 in a Spanish document that had been culled from the city archives and that listed them by size/number of employees: they ranged from 2 to 200.

Generally, the larger the company, the better the quality. My Ruby pictured below was made by Arizmendi y Goenaga, who produced about 80,000 for the French. They had around 125 employees, and this gun not only functions with another maker's magazine that I got it with, but will flawlessly feed hollowpoints.

After WW I, the Rubys kept spreading joy among other users. Newly independent Finland got a large batch from France for its new army, and came to hate them just as much, although they survived long enough to see action in the Russo-Finnish winter war of 1939/40. The new Polish army got them from the French and they saw use against the Red Army 1919/20.

And after the fall of France in 1940, quite a few landed in the holsters of German occupation troops in France, ending up in the US after being taken by GI's off the proverbial "dead SS officers" (in reality usually some frightened reservist) as a war trophy. And I've seen at least one Basque Ruby on Gunbroker that had bring-back papers of a US veteran from Vietnam, where it likely ended up with French colonial troops and then the VC before being captured by the American.

 

[Cyrano]

Wish I could put a double like to that post, Absalom. I'll post a short addition. France supported one of he Balkan States: Latvia. The French ambassador noted that the Latvians were not impressed with the armaments they were receiving although they were the first line French weapons of the period: Rubys and Chauchat MGs.

 

[Cyrano]

At the conclusion of World War I, the French General Staff took a look at their weapons and equipment and decided that everything was obsolete. They developed a large scale plan of designing and rebuilding but due to budget limitations in the 1920s and 1930s, only prototypes were developed. When France finally became aware of the threat posed by a Germany under Hitler, many new designs were finalized and adopted, most bearing deignations of Mle 35 or 36. In the field of small arms, a long seriss of trials had resulted in the adoption of a pistol designed by Charles Petter, a Swiss citizen, and built by SACM (Société Alsacienne de Constructions Méchanique), located at Cholet in the middle of Fance. It was designated the Mle 1935A, and was chambered for the 7.65 Long cartridge that France had adopted as a SMG round in the late 1920s, identical to the cartridge for the Pederson device. It was an attractive pistol, well made, sturdy and reliable. Petter returned to his native Switzerland and after the war pursued his design which eventually resulted in the SIG P 210.

Manufacture of the 35A started in 1937; production was slow and as the probability of war increased, France looked for an alternative. The second place in the 1935 trials had gone to a design of the Manufacture d'armes de St Etienne (MAS). MAS dusted off their old plans, made a few changes and the pistol was adopted as the Mle 1935S. The design looks blockier, but is more comfortable in the hand than the 35A, and the sights are larger, better for a combat pistol.

At the start of WW II in September, 1939, French soldiers were armed with everything left over from WW I as well as the 35A and 35S. Up until the fall of France in July of 1940, SACM had produced 10,700 35A pistols and MAS had produced just 1040 35S, which went to the Armée de l'Aire (Air Force). Pre war 35As are scarce and I know of only one pre-war 35S. Germany put the 35A back in production and stamped the pistols with waffenamts. They did not make the 35S. The Nazis also put the MAB D and Unique 17 into production. One of the MABs must have fallen into the hands of the FFI (Forces Français de l'Interieur: the Resistance), as it came with the holster shown, probably a modified US M 1916. After the war, both the 35A and 35S were produced in quantity.

Photos:
Pre-war Mle 1935A.
Mle 1935A with M 1937 holster.
Mle 1935S.
Mle 1935S with a holster mae by SAGEM.
MAB D with FFI marked holster.

 

[Cyrano]

One last French gun. This Charlin 12 gauge, sliding breech shotgun is not a war weapon. However it has a very intresting history and deserves a look. It was made sometime before the start of WW II and the barrels were proved at the proof house at St Etienne. The proof mark is stamped on the round part of the barrels. Below the proof is the choke stamp: 'P Choke' is full choke for the left barrel, and '½ Choke' is somewhere between improved and modified for the right barrel. On the flats the barrels are marked 65, this indicates a cartridge 65mm long or 2½ inches, a common lemgth in Europe at that time The running rabbit is a Charlin code marking for the level of quality and the code is unknown. There are perfectly normal markings for a French shotgun of this period; however the markings below them on the flat are anything but normal. '70' indicates the chambers were rebored to 70mm, or 2 3/4 inches, the normal length in the US and were stamped with an eagle ove J to indicate a modification while reproof is indicated by the eagle over N. These are the proof marks of the German civil proof law of 1939-1945. This shotgun was taken as German war boody after the fall of France in June of 1940, and modified by its new German owner. It was probably also taken as war booty again in 1945 by a GI since I found it at a gun show in El Paso.

Photos:
Charlin 12 gauge shotgun, grade: one rabbit.
Action open.
Barrel and flat markings.
Right Barrel Flat markings.

 

[DocB]

I have way too many to photograph and post, but here's one I just posted on another thread. . .1943 Mauser P-38 outfit in stone mint condition. Well, the gun is mint. The holster, not so much, but was the vet pick up with the gun.

 

[Dump1567]

1945 Remington Rand than sold through the NRA/DCM in 1960.

 

[paul s]

G43

Made in early 1945, don't have this one anymore, wish I had kept it!

 

[Cyrano]

Here are a few German weapons From World War I. First is a Reichsrevolver M 1878, made by Gebruder Mauser and issued to the Bavarian Army. Caliber is 11mm, DWM # 200. The unit stamping on the butt is probably A Battery, 4th Bavarian Artillery Regiment, and it probably was carried by a soldier in that regiment in WW I. It stayed in service after the war: the letters BE burned into the grip stand for Bayerische Einwohnerwehr, a post WW I Bavarian civil guard. The holster is a lot scarcer than the revolver.

Next is an LP08, my only World War I Luger. The sights have screw adjustments for zeroing. Has anyone seen the tool for adjusting these sights? I'd love to see a picture of one. The stock may be a reproduction.

Next is a complete 'Red 9' Rig: pistol with matching numbered stock, harness and cleaning rod. It came back to the US with a World War II vet who said he found it in a German machine gun nest in France. He sold it to a friend, and eventually I got it. The magazine follower for the Mausers in 9mm P has a scallop on the lower side to help feeding the 9mm round which is shorter than the 7.63 round the pistol was designed for.

 

[Cyrano]

And here are a few German weapons From World War II. The Mauser pistol with its holster is the Weiman Republic variation. It started out as a 'Red 9" and after the war had the barrel shortened and the original muzzle sleeved over the stub of the barrel to satisfy the Interallied Control Commission. The rear sight was removed and a fixed sight attached. It bears an early Waffenamt stamp (post WW I). The holster is dated 1920. The rig went with the German occupying forces in Norway and after the war it was used by the Norwegian Army. It was surplussed around 1956 and bears the Norwegian rampant lion mark to show it was released from Norwgian service.

Next is a Mauser banner police Luger with its holster. The pistol is dated 1939 and has the safety bar that prevents the firing pin from being released once the sideplate is removed.

Next is an Astra Model 903, the selective fire version of the Astra copy of the Mauser pistol. It's registered, of course. Its serial number is in the batch sold to Germany in World War II. René Duquesne has traced one of these back to a German Naval Artillery unit that defended Cherbourg, and I would'nt be surprised if this one came from there too. It has a Mauser stock (not the original Astra stock), with a piece grafted onto the front to accept the longer Astra 903 barrel.

Last is an early Mauser HSc in caliber 7.65, with the hole in the butt for a lanyard and a matted sight groove in the slide. It, too, has a waffenamt stamp to show it was accepted into the German Army.

I think I'll shut up for a while now.

 

[TheHobbyist]

^^^^Cyrano, Thank you for posting and please continue to share. I am a young man and can't afford all the toys you got but from a historical perspective find them fascinating.

Thank you for sharing and please add more if you should want. Best

 

[moosedog]

Just picked this WWII era Mauser HSC 7.65 pistol up. It is a police issue, with the Eagle L stamp on the left side of the trigger guard.
A recent NRA American Rifleman article stated that the police marked WWII pistols don't bring as much as the Military marked ones. In the collectors world he would be proven wrong.

 

[moosedog]

Here's a seldom encountered WWII bring back. The French Unique Coups 9 or model 17 made during the Nazi occupation. It is with it's correct original holster and two magazines. It is 7.65.

 

[vigil617]

Cyrano and Absalom, thanks for the info and photos of the Ruby pistols. My paternal grandfather was a G.I. in France in 1918 and was a tank mechanic. His unit worked on whatever came in to be fixed, including French tanks, and he found a Ruby in one of them and brought it home. It has a permanent spot in the wooden locker that contains his wartime memorabilia. I took it to a local militaria dealer to find out what it was worth, and he had told me about the model and its reputation for unreliability, and that I shouldn't try to sell it since it was practically worthless as a gun but had the family history connection. Good advice.

Incidentally, my grandfather was at The Citadel as a cadet when the United States declared war in 1917. I think he would have been the equivalent of a sophomore or junior at the time. He and practically his entire class went to the recruiting office the next day and signed up. I'm enormously proud of him and his generation for their patriotism. Incidentally, he never returned to college after the war, but got married, had three children, and eventually became a partner in the family's machine shop business before he retired -- a good man who lived a good life.

I wish I had talked more with him about the war before he died, but he did leave a war diary that was interesting to read. It included a list of guys in his unit, and there is a poignant notation next to one of them that read "My best friend" and "Killed in action" and the date of his death.

God Bless all the "doughboys."

 

[Absalom]

Vigil617:

Neat story. And great as a keepsake. Any chance you could post a picture of the Ruby sometime, and maybe a close-up of the stampings on the slide?

 

[vigil617]

Vigil617:

Neat story. And great as a keepsake. Any chance you could post a picture of the Ruby sometime, and maybe a close-up of the stampings on the slide?

It'll take a bit of time and doin', but yes, I will.

UPDATE 06/01/2017:

And you thought I'd forgotten! Here they are, not the greatest photos but maybe good enough for you to be able to see the stampings. I'd forgotten how ugly this thing is! And from what I've heard, you should take the last photo with a grain of salt on this model....

 

[SC_Mike]

I had a pair of Mosins and two spam cans of ammo for years. When the price had tripled on them I let them go to fund an AR project(s).

Beautiful weapons all, thanks for sharing.