Powder charge for .38 vs 9mm

One more question: So I have the powder W231 gr for the .38. I dont have a powder charge gr for the .357 in W231. Does anyone have the min-max with that powder? I only have the one reference book..guess I should get another. The charge varies from 6.9 SR4756 min- 15.9 H110 max. Thats a huge span! Anyone else with a Nosler book that can give me the powder type that is close to the W231? Hang with me folks.. I'm not sure how to word all my questions. Hope this makes some sense. Thanks. A
 
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Cdog said:
...[snip]...
Information is definitely key to safe hand loading.
I recommend getting a manual that describes the cartridge in detail. Not only is it informative, much of it is very interesting.
Click to expand...

I totally agree on the need for a manual, or three, or five...
Why so many?...
  • If you are loading Hornady, Nosler, Sierra, Speer, Remington, etc. bullets, then buy a manual for each brand of bullet you are using.
  • Also buy or source a manual for each brand of powder you are loading (Hodgdon, Winchester, Vihtavuori-online, etc. if available hard-copy or online)
  • The Lee Modern Reloading Manual is a good starting point, however, be aware that the manual is information gleaned from a number of different sources and is often not as accurate as going to a specific OEM manual. And always be aware of the test barrel length of the loading information.

Good luck! And happy reloading... ;):D
 
HorizontalMike said:
The Lee Modern Reloading Manual is a good starting point, however, be aware that the manual is information gleaned from a number of different sources and is often not as accurate as going to a specific OEM manual. And always be aware of the test barrel length of the loading information.
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Yes, Lee is a good place to start and has possibly the widest range of data for different powders and bullets. It may tell you if a particular powder is even tested with your bullet. You'll still want to cross-check with other sources.

HP-38 and Win 231 are the same powder, made in the same factory, and dumped into bottles with different labels. These are well established to be interchangeable. However, if memory serves, Lee lists results for .38 using HP-38, but not .357. Then, turn the page and there are .357 loads using Win 231, but not HP-38. When I discovered this anomaly, I was confused. This is the nature of loading data and why you need multiple sources.

Sounds like you need a powder burn rate chart. Most manuals have one or they can be easily found on powder manufacturers' websites. These charts compare the various burn rates of all the major (and sometimes obscure) powders. With care, substitutions might be made with powders immediately adjacent or nearby on the charts, with only slight adjustments. For instance, Win 231/HP-38 will be nearby to Unique, but not an exact match as to powder charge weights in the manuals. 231 is a tad "faster." They are both fine powders for mid-range use in your intended calibers, but have slightly different characteristics.
 
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And sometimes the same powder charge actually works in multiple calibers. 3.5 gns of BE is my plinking load for cast bullets in 9x19, 9x18 and 38 Special. Different weight bullets of course but they shoot pretty much to point of aim in fixed sight handguns.
 
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walnutred said:
And sometimes the same powder charge actually works in multiple calibers. 3.5 gns if BE is my plinking load for cast bullets in 9x19, 9x18 and 38 Special. Different weight bullets of course but they shoot pretty much to point of aim in fixed sight handguns.
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Yes, and 4.4gr Titegroup appears in charts for 9mm, .40 S&W, .38Spl, and .45 ACP, just among the cartridges I routinely load, and several others I don't.

Posts like the OP's concern me, especially requests for general rules of thumb for similar powders. The science of internal ballistics is not only more complicated than most understand, it is more complicated than most CAN understand, unless educated in the world of second and third-order differential calculus.
https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/papers/2008/P4466.pdf
 
I use HP38 exclusively for pistol rounds. Meters dead on every time. Same powder as W231. I load 3.6 grains under a 158 grain .38 SWC and 4.2 grains under 124 grain round nose 9MM.
 
OneHorseRanch said:
The charge varies from 6.9 SR4756 min- 15.9 H110 max. Thats a huge span!
Click to expand...

That is a huge span but you can't extrapolate one powder charge from another. Powders have different burn characteristics, pressure curves, etc. Also note that, all other things being equal, larger bullets use a smaller powder charge.

OneHorseRanch said:
Does anyone have the min-max with that powder?
Click to expand...

Published data is the Gold Standard. Even if someone gave you a range of charges, you can't trust it. Even if they're right, typos happen.
 
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WOW! Thats a lot of info! Good stuff tho. Thank you. I'll keep searching reference books before I get started on the .357. Have a wonderful Thanksgiving!!:D
 
"The charge varies from 6.9 SR4756 min- 15.9 H110 max. Thats a huge span"

PLEASE do not attempt to compare the two and interpolate a load recipe based on this. Incredibly dangerous. Those powders can't be compared.

Get a Hornady, Lee, Speer, and Lyman manual. The Lee manual has lots of basic info that should interest you. Lyman makes a great manual focusing on cast bullets. Also, all the powder manufacturers have online resources available. There is absolutely no reason to guess at anything. The research has already been done.
 
OneHorseRanch said:
One more question: So I have the powder W231 gr for the .38. I dont have a powder charge gr for the .357 in W231. Does anyone have the min-max with that powder? I only have the one reference book..guess I should get another. The charge varies from 6.9 SR4756 min- 15.9 H110 max. Thats a huge span! Anyone else with a Nosler book that can give me the powder type that is close to the W231? Hang with me folks.. I'm not sure how to word all my questions. Hope this makes some sense. Thanks. A
Click to expand...

You are failing to understand how powders work. The faster the powder the less it takes to reach max pressures. Hence the wide spread in charges across the powder spectrum. Winchester data is on line, cross ref that with your manual. Yes they will likely be slightky diff.
You need another manual for handgun loading. The Noslervis good for rifle but too limited for handgun. I like the Speer & Lyman for handgun. The Lyman I like best because they have a lot of lead data. This is useful for using coated bullets & plated bullets. Yes bullet types matter, they are rarely plug & play.
 
Onehorse. Please use excessive caution while reloading.
Please look up Burn rates and really understand what that means and why certain powders work well in certain cartridges and bullet weights.
My old Lyman manual has a very good reloading primer ,pun intended, on what, why and how all the components work together as one. Changing one part of the recipe changes everything. P,ease read it and really understand the points if you dont have an old codger to mentor you.
We are all very happy to have you reloading but we see a bit too much excitement and us old codgers know that can easily end up as a blown up gun or worse , pricey deductibles and missing body parts.
 
Yeah, I'm thinking someone needs to read a couple of basic manuals on reloading to really get a grasp of the fundamentals.

There are a number of things that are counter-intuitive about handloading and you really need to read enough material to understand some of the basics.

For starters I like the Lee manual Modern Reloading. It may not be the best manual out there, BUT it is a great one for a beginner to start with and learn the basics IMO. It also contains a good bit of loading data from a variety of sources all compiled into one place.

After thoroughly digesting the material presented in that one then read one or more of the more advanced manuals for even greater in-depth understanding.
 
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I mostly use the Hodgdon website. Here's a link:

Hodgdon Reloading | Home

But I also have several manuals. I even use the little pamphlet that comes with my Lee die sets. All of the data between those sources are usually identical, or with very minor variations.

I load middle of the road for the EXACT powder. You can't substitute one powder for another and use the other powder data. This isn't Pepsi vs Coke. I load maybe 50 rounds and weigh every charge, even though with HP38 it's not really necessary. When I first started it was during the last ammo drought in 2013 and powder was hard to come by. I had to start with Red Dot and that did not meter consistently so I had no choice but to weight every charge and I usually needed to use a trickler to get to where I needed to be. But it's safe and for me safe is what matters with reloading. I load on a single stage press. I'm in no rush.

I watched tons of reliable YouTube videos. Some of them on there are scary. I read lots of books. Asked lots of questions on here. Many knowledgeable members here and they're very helpful. Didn't load one round until I had a good understanding of the process and 7.5 years later I'm still a novice, but that's ok.
 
Great stuff! Thanks again for the info. I've taken down your notes on reloading manuals and website links. I do have a local friend that has been reloading for over 50 years. I'll also pick his brain. I'm excited about this but not enough to risk a firearm or myself in the process.
 
Now you are talking Onehorse! Try to seek out experienced reloaders and ask them to show you the basic steps they take in reloading. Don't take one persons advice, try to learn from several people. As has been said stay within the information contained in the manuals. Be very careful about using information taken on load data from a forum! Compare it to load data in a manual. Sometimes you have to make decisions and ask yourself does this make sense? In my experience reloading is super rewarding, but even though I followed all the recommendations, it wasn't until I bought a chronograph that it all came together. Finally I had a tool that told me exactly what the results of my reloading efforts were. There was no guessing anymore. Some of the results were quite surprising, but the chrono doesn't lie if used properly. I now have 3 of them and they all work quite well. Reloading is a serious hobby not to be taken lightly. One mistake can be catastrophic, but being able to custom tailor my loads and have a ready supply of lower cost ammunition is priceless. Good luck....
Rick H.
 
OneHorseRanch said:
One more question: So I have the powder W231 gr for the .38. I dont have a powder charge gr for the .357 in W231. Does anyone have the min-max with that powder? I only have the one reference book..guess I should get another. The charge varies from 6.9 SR4756 min- 15.9 H110 max. Thats a huge span! Anyone else with a Nosler book that can give me the powder type that is close to the W231? Hang with me folks.. I'm not sure how to word all my questions. Hope this makes some sense. Thanks. A
Click to expand...

All of these listings are for lead bullets but not all are cast bullets. Some are cast some are swaged and some didn't designate. The Lyman cast is for a Linotype alloy which I've never personally cast with. I've always just used wheel weights, at least when you could count on them being lead.

Speer #10:
158gr Speer LSWC (swaged, I think)

38SP W231 4.0 - 4.4

.357 W231 4.9 - 5.4
-----------------------
Hornady 4th
158gr Hornady LSWC swaged

38SP W231 3.6 - 4.2

.357 W231 4.8 - 6.4 Note that this maximum load of 6.4 is considerably higher than what is reflected in other manuals. That should probably set off alarm bells.
-------------------------
Lyman Pistol & Revolver Third Edition / Lyman Reloading Handbook 49th Edition
158gr Lyman #358665 (Linotype) cast LSWC

38SP W231 3.6 - 4.0

.357
These books don't list a 357 load for the same bullet??? It doesn't list W231 for anything other than lighter bullets and no cast bullets.
-----------------------------
Lee Modern Reloading Second Edition
158gr Lead (No further description)

38SP W231 3.1 - 3.7

.357 W231 3.4 - 5.0
---------------------------
Hodgdon Reloading 2013 Annual Manual
158GR Cast LSWC

38SP W231 3.1 - 3.7

.357 W231 3.4 - 5.0
--------------------------

I don't think any of my books are the latest and some are quite old so bear that in mind. I don't think I have a Nosler book. As stated several times by others: Start low and work up gradually.
 
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