Powder recommendation for 38 +P?

[Abflyboy]

FWIW, HS-6 under a 158 gr XTP is my .357 Magnum plinking load.

HS-6 meters extremely well through my Dillon XL650.

 

[Nevada Ed]

To the OP - you are wise to avoid unburned powder flakes. Unburned powder under the extractor can tie up a revolver.

My guns like Unique in heavy loads.

Just for giggles I tried the very SLOW IMR4227 in the 38 special case with a lead 158gr bullet.
Ten grains out of a J frame snub nose gave me 571fps..........
was very dirty and locked up the cylinder, to where I had to take it home to clean it and get the cylinder to open again.

This might be why the Lyman book that I have, only list
Blue Dot as the slowest powder for the 158gr weight lead bullets.

 

[alwslate]

For my fiancee I load 158 grain Hornady XTP with 4.3 grains of Hogdon titegroup. Its a fast burning powder that works good with short barrel revolvers, less muzzle flash.

Realize that the velocity of your load is going to be very low out
of a snubby, expansion will be zero and you may be taking a
real chance of sticking a bullet in the bore.

 

[sniper]

To the OP - you are wise to avoid unburned powder flakes. Unburned powder under the extractor can tie up a revolver.

True...don't ask me how I know this!

 

[Pantera Mike]

A couple of days ago I picked up a pound of AA#5 and a box of Speer 125gr Gold Dot Hollow Points. The Speer reloading manual has a max load of 7.8gr for +P while the older AA data has a MINIMUM of 8.3 with a warning not to reduce any further? The current AA data has a variety of loads for different 125gr bullets with a curious split, as the min and max charges vary quite a bit with different bullets. The two highest show a max of 7.8 which mirrors the Speer data. The minimum 357 magnum loads with this same bullet and powder combination are all substantially higher. So I felt safe starting off with 7.8. I won't be able to try it until next week but will let you know how it turns out.

I did shoot a hundred rounds of my 2400 load last week, which rendered the gun filthy. It was accurate and recoil was authoritative leading me to believe that whoever was on the other end would definitely rue the day, but the gun and bench were sprinkled with unburned powder flakes. I have 150 more rounds of this stuff to get rid of and will never use that load again.

I actually bought eight pounds of 2400 last year because the reloading manual data indicated it was suitably flexible for downloading 357 and 44 to lower-than-max velocities. I have found that once the charge is reduced it no longer works effectively. I guess I can turn up the steam, but that's why I have eight pounds of WW296?

First world problems....

 

[308 Scout]

2400 is a good powder, but like all other powders with a relatively slow burning rate, you must use them properly.

First, a magnum primer would be preferred for 2400. Second and most important a good, HEAVY roll crimp on the bullet. If you didn't crimp the bullets already I'd suggest you run the remaining round through the seater die crimp the bullets.

As I mentioned above, I loaded 10 gr. of 2400 for my Model 10's and 15 and haven't noticed any unburned power.

 

[Pantera Mike]

Actually I have been applying a heavy taper crimp. Good enough, or no? I've had problems with excessive roll crimp leading to case bulge and difficulty chambering (when deliberately trying to see how far I could go). Taper crimping seems more forgiving. But is a good taper crimp as effective as a good (not excessive) roll crimp?

 

[308 Scout]

Actually I have been applying a heavy taper crimp. Good enough, or no? I've had problems with excessive roll crimp leading to case bulge and difficulty chambering (when deliberately trying to see how far I could go). Taper crimping seems more forgiving. But is a good taper crimp as effective as a good (not excessive) roll crimp?

I don't think a taper crimp holds the bullet as well as a roll crimp. Like I said, I'm using 2400 in my .38's with zero problems, BUT I'm loading cast bullets that have a deep crimp groove. Are these jacketed bullets?

 

[Pantera Mike]

I don't think a taper crimp holds the bullet as well as a roll crimp. Like I said, I'm using 2400 in my .38's with zero problems, BUT I'm loading cast bullets that have a deep crimp groove. Are these jacketed bullets?

Perhaps you're right? But the taper crimp is fairly aggressive.

158gr JHP on the left, Speer 125gr GDHP on the right.

 

[308 Scout]

If it were me I'd seat those bullets to the very front of the cannelure and apply a good roll crimp. Nothing to lose by trying.

 

[Pantera Mike]

If it were me I'd seat those bullets to the very front of the cannelure and apply a good roll crimp. Nothing to lose by trying.

Well, almost.

When trying to both seat the bullets further and apply a roll crimp to already-taper-crimped rounds, within the first ten rounds I had two episodes of cases collapsing. Neck tension was strong enough that when the seater plug tried to press the bullet further into the case, the case body collapsed.

So I raised the seating stem so that it no longer touched the bullet, accepting their current position in the case, and just applied a roll crimp which seemed to work okay. It's still not a perfect-looking roll crimp, but I guess it's better? As these are basically throwaway rounds anyway I'm not overly concerned.

For my next batch though, I will forgo taper crimping and attempt a conventional roll crimp. I prefer to fully seat the bullet and then crimp separately which hopefully leads to better results.

 

[Pantera Mike]

BTW it's difficult to convey how filthy this thing is running with 2400. The photo below show unburned powder on the frame (also all over then rug below, but difficult to see), and soot all over the crane and cylinder. The back of the cylinder is shiny only because of my fingers wiping it off while opening and closing.

This is after 100 rounds.....

 

[Grayfox]

I find that W231 works very well in just about any non-magnum revolver cartridge and burns very clean. Its my "go to" powder.

 

[308 Scout]

BTW it's difficult to convey how filthy this thing is running with 2400. The photo below show unburned powder on the frame (also all over then rug below, but difficult to see), and soot all over the crane and cylinder. The back of the cylinder is shiny only because of my fingers wiping it off while opening and closing.

This is after 100 rounds.....

That's strange. I've been loading it in the .357 for about 35 years, then in the .38 Special for 4 or 5 years, as well as the .44 Special and 45 Colt Only the .357 loads have been really high pressure loads. Never had any issues with this powder.

 

[Pantera Mike]

I find that W231 works very well in just about any non-magnum revolver cartridge and burns very clean. Its my "go to" powder.

Yeah, me too. I use it for powder puff 38 HBWC target loads, as well as 45 ACP, 380 and (soon) 9mm. It's fantastic.

But I always thought it would be too fast to be optimal for a magnum or magnum-ish revolver cartridge. I suspect AA#5 will be better suited to this task, especially in light of all the testimony above. Time will tell.

And I also have 8 pounds of 231 in the powder cabinet so I'm not ruling anything out...

 

[ArchAngelCD]

There was a thread with a lot of good dat a for duplicating the old 158gr "FBI +P Load". IIRC the best results anybody got was with HS-6

There was a good thread discussing duplicates for the FBI Load. I was 1 of the group of handloaders who worked on the project.

There were several powders that "worked" but IMO HS-6 was best at the time. There are several new powders available since then which I have not tried.

 

[Groo01]

Groo here
As you stated a HP bullet, you should try fore an impact speed of 1000 fps.
I would NOT use a jacket bullet at such a low speed unless it is a SJHP
with A LOT of lead exposed.
GT bullets has cast lead HP bullets.
I would get a selection and try them...

 

[geo57]

A couple of days ago I picked up a pound of AA#5 and a box of Speer 125gr Gold Dot Hollow Points. The Speer reloading manual has a max load of 7.8gr for +P while the older AA data has a MINIMUM of 8.3 with a warning not to reduce any further? The current AA data has a variety of loads for different 125gr bullets with a curious split, as the min and max charges vary quite a bit with different bullets. The two highest show a max of 7.8 which mirrors the Speer data. The minimum 357 magnum loads with this same bullet and powder combination are all substantially higher. So I felt safe starting off with 7.8. I won't be able to try it until next week but will let you know how it turns out.

I did shoot a hundred rounds of my 2400 load last week, which rendered the gun filthy. It was accurate and recoil was authoritative leading me to believe that whoever was on the other end would definitely rue the day, but the gun and bench were sprinkled with unburned powder flakes. I have 150 more rounds of this stuff to get rid of and will never use that load again.

I actually bought eight pounds of 2400 last year because the reloading manual data indicated it was suitably flexible for downloading 357 and 44 to lower-than-max velocities. I have found that once the charge is reduced it no longer works effectively. I guess I can turn up the steam, but that's why I have eight pounds of WW296?

First world problems....

Mike, FWIW 2400 can be reduced somewhat and still burn at nearly 100 % efficiency. In .357 mag cases I load a bulk 158 gr. JHP on top of 13.5 grs. of 2400, employ a firm roll crimp and use standard primers. It is a 90% full power load and burns clean. If I reduce the powder charge to 12.8 grains I get a modest amount of powder granules in varying stages of burn.

 

[jtcarm]

Power pistol if you have it on hand. I personally stray away from blue dot (blue dirt), it doesn't perform well until you get near max loads and its been very dirty to shoot for me.

I had the misfortune of using it as my first handgun powder and had all sorts of problems with it, I thought I was doing something wrong until I got up near my max loads.

+1 on Power Pistol. 6 grains will get you there with a 158 lead bullet.

As always, work up to it.

 

[Bronco89]

I've been using CFE-Pistol as of late, and getting some impressive velocities even without getting into +P. Honestly, for what I am doing, a little too much velocity. But it would make a great defensive load, and burns clean to boot. I wouldn't sweet shooting lead 38's in a 357. I've been doing it since 1988 and haven't had a problem yet.

The latest Speer book as some good lead 158gr +P loads. They list HS6 as a good performer.

 

[Groo01]

Groo here
PS
If the wifey wants less than 357 mid loads,,,,, I suggest
The Super Vel 38spec Super snub +p.
I have shot some from my 3in K6s and decided that they will be my "City Carry Load"
They don't drive as deep [ 8/9 inches] BUT they sure make a mess.
The kick is light , [because of weight] they are fast [ even from a snub]
Nickle brass [as all SD ammo should be]...
The light bullet should help with going through walls and the 38 case will eject easer for reloads.

 

[Pantera Mike]

Back home from the range. AA#5 seems like a winner, burning completely clean and pushing 125gr Speer Gold Dot Hollow point out the 4-inch tube at a measured 950 fps.

However, the bullet itself proved to be a dismal failure. I was shooting water jugs set side-by-side. I have become accustomed to massive water explosions when shooting jugs with 44 mag, 45 ACP, 357/44 B&D etc. I figured I would capture the fired bullets to examine their expansion today.

Instead of the expected exploded jug, I would up with a neat 357-sized hole through six jugs and the bullet trapped in the seventh jug. There was ZERO expansion.

Thinking my protocol was faulty, I then tested Federal Critical Defense 110gr (NOT +P) which EXPLODED the first jug and was trapped in the second. It performed exactly as it should have.

(See photos of the two recovered bullets for the dramatic contrast).

Tonight I searched YouTube for videos of people shooting GDHP in 38 special, and most of them show little to no expansion. It's a tremendous disappointment, especially as that line has a good reputation in other calibers.

Speer sells a dedicated short-barrel GDHP, so perhaps the regular one is sturdier and designed to work at higher 357 Mag velocities. It sure doesn't work at 1000 fps!

But AA#5 seems to be a winner, so thanks for that!

 

[epj]

I've had pretty good results with Universal.

 

[smith57]

38 Spl loads

Being an old guy with two surgeries to my dominant hand I opt for lighter recoil , particularly in the airweight snubbies. I shoot Rem. 125 gr SJHP bullets in 38 Spl cases with 7.1 gr. of Herco. I like the large lead nose of this jacketed bullet, and my chrono says I get 1,017 fps. It is a very easily controlled load and extremely accurate out of my 642 and my 3" Md. 64. This load is from the Hornady 3rd Edition loading manual and is listed just below the +P powder charge. Herco is an old powder but burns clean at this powder charge and cases extract easily. I have never tested it for penetration and expansion, so I can't say what the terminal effects might be. I like this load, but in my 642 for self defense purposes I carry factory 148 gr WC loads. Accurate and easy recoil and hopefully 5 of them would change the attitude of a bad guy.

 

[Phil_A]

I have been using HS-6 mainly for the last few years for 38 special. Hodgdon has the loading data listed for standard and +P loads.

I also like VV N320 and N340 as well for 38 special 45 colt when I can get it. Vihtavuori also has load data posted for there powders.

 

[rsrocket1]

Most HP rounds want over 1000 fps to expand. Water jugs aren't a good test for marginal rounds. If you shot those Gold Dots into a side of beef, it could expand considerably (or not).

Honestly, for you wife I would recommend 5g Unique or 5.6g BE-86. BE-86 has flash suppressants to help eliminate the flash typically seen with powders like Power Pistol. For +P ammo pushing a 158g bullet to 900-1000 fps, you don't need and don't want anything much slower than Unique. AA5 fits the bill quite well.

Personally, I would prefer a 158g soft lead cast flat nose bullet at 900 fps to a 110g JHP @1100 fps. There will be more muzzle blast and a higher chance of bullet deflection (against bone or other object other than flesh) with a fast light bullet than with a slower heavier bullet. Yes the fast expanding bullet looks nice after a gel or water jug test when it strikes nothing harder than water but most bad guys aren't homogeneous jugs of water or gelatin blocks.

But the bottom line is what does your wife feel comfortable shooting? If she's comfortable squeezing off 3 rounds in quick succession with the 110g load without flinching, you're GTG. The most important thing for a SD/HD load is that you won't be afraid to use it when it really counts, that you don't flinch in anticipation of the recoil and that you can shoot multiple times in a stressful situation.

 

[Old Corp]

My stuck-in-a-rut 'go-to' .38 Spl. load for many years was a 158 gr LSWC, or when I cast, the Lyman #358156GC bullet over 5.5gr of Unique.

It was the main fodder I labeled 'Field Loads' and shot mostly in 2.5, 4 and 6 in. Security Sixes, my M19, my duty M66 (no, was not allowed to use this ammo at work), and a M28.
It was great in all those.

Remember getting my first J frame, a basic M36 2" and running them in that. After 3-4 cylinder-fulls you'd had all the fun you wanted with that.
The duty load, a .38 Spl 125 gr JHP +P was more comfy.

I have found that AA-5 works as good, and meters better and is some cleaner than Unique. But, I'm happy in my little rut. I hauled out some of that listed load for a range trip recently and saw it was loaded in 1987. Did great.

 

[bulletslap]

I will second the use of Herco in warm 38 special loads, I keep on hand for shotshells mostly. It was popular a generation ago for 38 spcl, and other similar handgun cartridges.

 

[minconrevo]

Good performance in the particular barrel length, with minimum muzzle flash as an important consideration would be the direction I'd go. I'm a fan of 158 gr SWC lead hollowpoints. I've run 1000's of .38 Spec +P equivalents through 686's in .38 Spl cases. Outside of reduced case life due to the +P there has been no problems.

 

[Nevada Ed]

I will NOT fire any 125 gr. Speer Gold Dots through my 38 special snub nose, for the same reason.
Low FPS and the factory bullet did not even start to expand and could actually be reloaded again, if needed.

This bullet needs at least a 4" barrel to get the needed fps for it to maybe work right.

Any 125 gr JHP out of my 2" J frame will be the Remington or a HST bullet....... but this is my fourth choice.