MsRuth
Member
Practice with what you carry conversation got me thinking
Good advice, but sometimes it gets expensive.
Good advice, but sometimes it gets expensive.
Practice with what you carry conversation got me thinking - UPDATE
- Thread starter Grimjaws
- Start date
bigwheelzip
Absent Comrade
Well, if the nutjob shows up with an AR, like in Southland Springs TX, killing 26, the AR training might help level the field.
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mscampbell2734
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I CAN see an AR for a Church security team. Not carried but stashed somewhere. If the need arises the team needs to be prepared to engage while one member goes for the long gun.
Darkenfast
Member
Marshal Tom brought up an important point: range. The emphasis in most CCW training is very short range defense (and rightly so in my opinion). Many sanctuaries have more than 25 yards between their extreme points and a shooting attack will most likely be at a time when there are a whole bunch of people around.
My main takeaway: You need to train for real accuracy, so you don't kill one of your friends. This level of shooting is not for everybody (sadly including me at this point). I love my church family. I know they have some sort of team. I don't even ask because I have no need to know.
Just my opinion.
My main takeaway: You need to train for real accuracy, so you don't kill one of your friends. This level of shooting is not for everybody (sadly including me at this point). I love my church family. I know they have some sort of team. I don't even ask because I have no need to know.
Just my opinion.
Been running my carry guns, (M&P Shields. 9mm & 45acp), at the range exclusively for the last few years. Due to the ammo shortage, I limit it to 2 mags each. I go at least once a week, so that works for me. Look forward to the day when ammo's available, (and at a reasonable price), so I can exercise some of the others, but till then,,,,,
Practiced regularly with my 6906, carried it from 1994-2021. Practice with CZ P 07 regularly. Only change, 115 gr ball on the range instead of 124 gr Fed HST. I don't shoot well enough any more to have significant difference in POI with the lighter slugs. Joe
Hair Trigger
US Veteran
Train to be as accurate as the circumstances allow. In a crowd of any kind, the perp will have the advantage, as he is not worried about collateral damage. The defensive goal is to minimize the damage he can create by taking him down as quickly as possible. The longer you delay, waiting for a clear background or clear shot, the more time he has to create mayhem. That there are several defenders within the crowd lessens the perp's advantage, and part of the practice scenario would be to flank the perp and surround him. It's almost guaranteed the defenders may hit an innocent, but how many will the perp get if you delay?
The congregation should be made a part of the training; Rather than blindly panic and run helter-skelter, trying to avoid the shooting, the better tactic for them may be to hit the floor, down between the pews. This does two things: 1- it takes them out of the view, however slightly, of the perp, and 2- it takes them out of the defender's' line of fire. There are still no guarantees, but it does improve the odds.
Maybe posting a sign at the door, that there is an active defense team within, could be an effective deterrent. The perp's goal is to attack a defenseless group and kill/wound as many as he can. Knowing up front that he has less of a chance of achieving his goal, without being killed himself, would stop him before things got started. How much more /less likely is it for a burglar to attempt a break-in if he knows there is a bad-tempered Doberman wandering inside the house?
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Yep train with exactly what you carry. Gun and ammo. Using anemic training rounds and expecting yourself to react the same in a defense scenario with more powerful ammo can create you a problem for sure. Recover time back to target and rhythm probably being two of the main ones
Far as real world I don’t train on a controlled range. Nor do I teach defensive handgun on a controlled range. Main reason is you can’t really get yourself all contorted or roll around on the ground or run and gun at a controlled range.
I do it in the open desert. Also I only shoot at the red plastic Folgers coffee cans. They don’t disintegrate so it’s easy to pick up when your done shooting, and they bounce around when you hit them which makes you change your aim and or position for every shot
They are about the size of a human head which is what I train for. Headshots, bad guys can’t wear body armor on their face. They are also a good size for keeping effective torso shot groups if that’s your thing,
Throw a few of those cans out there. And blast away. Crouch down to reload or jog around and reload while moving. Just create your own in motion scenarios. It may seem strange at first but it allows you to work on skills that you cannot come close to honing on a range
I also like to throw in some shoot from the hip instinctive draw and fire shooting. This is important if you get stuck in a “gotta beat em to the draw” scenario. Most train to draw and bring it up to eye level sight picture then fire. When split seconds can be the difference between living and dying the skill of “clear the holster and rip off a round” can be a life saver
If you can get to the point where you pop those red coffee cans every time from any position or in motion you have one heck of a leg up on most any assailant you will ever encounter
Far as real world I don’t train on a controlled range. Nor do I teach defensive handgun on a controlled range. Main reason is you can’t really get yourself all contorted or roll around on the ground or run and gun at a controlled range.
I do it in the open desert. Also I only shoot at the red plastic Folgers coffee cans. They don’t disintegrate so it’s easy to pick up when your done shooting, and they bounce around when you hit them which makes you change your aim and or position for every shot
They are about the size of a human head which is what I train for. Headshots, bad guys can’t wear body armor on their face. They are also a good size for keeping effective torso shot groups if that’s your thing,
Throw a few of those cans out there. And blast away. Crouch down to reload or jog around and reload while moving. Just create your own in motion scenarios. It may seem strange at first but it allows you to work on skills that you cannot come close to honing on a range
I also like to throw in some shoot from the hip instinctive draw and fire shooting. This is important if you get stuck in a “gotta beat em to the draw” scenario. Most train to draw and bring it up to eye level sight picture then fire. When split seconds can be the difference between living and dying the skill of “clear the holster and rip off a round” can be a life saver
If you can get to the point where you pop those red coffee cans every time from any position or in motion you have one heck of a leg up on most any assailant you will ever encounter
roscoepc
Member
I read the same article about the store shooting up in Buffalo and my Prayers are with all the people that got hurt killed or injured there... The retired officer involved, I'm sure, emptied his gun in an effort to bring the perp down.. The trouble was the perp had a bullet proof vest on and the officer was probably shooting center mass as he was trained to do..
The lesson I got from this is, Yeah, Train to shoot center mass 2-3 times and then go for a head shot if you can.. Accuracy is key!!! Practice slow at first and then bring your speed up slowly until your groups are too large. Stop, call it a day and do it again next week.. And so on....
It's what I'm gonna do anyway....
As far as the amount of rounds I don't think that's as big of a deal as using a gun you're accurate with: Drilling a quarter at 5-10 yards vs a 3-4" spread or larger...
On a side note I hope they ROAST this,,,,,,,, Animal... He's not even human IMHO...
The lesson I got from this is, Yeah, Train to shoot center mass 2-3 times and then go for a head shot if you can.. Accuracy is key!!! Practice slow at first and then bring your speed up slowly until your groups are too large. Stop, call it a day and do it again next week.. And so on....
It's what I'm gonna do anyway....
As far as the amount of rounds I don't think that's as big of a deal as using a gun you're accurate with: Drilling a quarter at 5-10 yards vs a 3-4" spread or larger...
On a side note I hope they ROAST this,,,,,,,, Animal... He's not even human IMHO...
I have some thoughts and questions. Having a church security team is great. Having training specifically geared to church security is necessary. Having training for the church council or ruling body of the church is important. Having the church buy liability insurance covering the church and security team is important. I think just as important is training the congregation. That can save lives. Merely teaching parishioners to drop and cover, or what to do in the event there is a shooter. If you are head of church security, are you aware of who else is carrying concealed? If the shooting starts and I take out my concealed carry, do you identify me as a potential shooter or a good guy? Hope the right decision gets made. If not, what are the consequences? Always more to think about.
Since this is a rational thread (as opposed to a gamesman thread), consider that Gendron wore a Level IIIA or IV vest. Nothing you can load in your EDC will penetrate soft Level IV, Level IV with plates, or even IIIA armor with plates, as decedent Salter learned after hitting Gendron on the vest with well-aimed fire several times before being killed. Decades of training to hit center mass didn't help, either.
So; can you identify a vest when you are under attack stress? What if it has 'POLICE' on it? Will you be able to identify whether the vest-wearer is or is not police/SWAT by his/her actions? If armed with a sideram, where do you aim, and from what angle? Can you hit a small target, like a head/neck (from any angle), or a shoulder (from a side angle)? If your answer is, "No," could you have the presence of mind to shoot at and hit very low abdomen/groin/extreme upper thighs from any angle? Would your EDC's ammo reliably penetrate a femur, hipbone, sacrum, or coccyx and disrupt soft tissues and nerves or nerve bundles? Would it reliably penetrate/disrupt shoulder bones and ribs?
An ability to observe, quickly deduce, and reliably target the most likely spot to incapacitate your opponent or make them ineffective at return fire is as important (perhaps moreso) than (much easier to learn) marksmanship with your EDC.
So; can you identify a vest when you are under attack stress? What if it has 'POLICE' on it? Will you be able to identify whether the vest-wearer is or is not police/SWAT by his/her actions? If armed with a sideram, where do you aim, and from what angle? Can you hit a small target, like a head/neck (from any angle), or a shoulder (from a side angle)? If your answer is, "No," could you have the presence of mind to shoot at and hit very low abdomen/groin/extreme upper thighs from any angle? Would your EDC's ammo reliably penetrate a femur, hipbone, sacrum, or coccyx and disrupt soft tissues and nerves or nerve bundles? Would it reliably penetrate/disrupt shoulder bones and ribs?
An ability to observe, quickly deduce, and reliably target the most likely spot to incapacitate your opponent or make them ineffective at return fire is as important (perhaps moreso) than (much easier to learn) marksmanship with your EDC.
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9mmPatriot
Member
I was at the range yesterday, had to take a walk to reset my G2 Housing Unit (That's "Brain" for you Silly-Villians
). 2 more mags and I knew it was pointless.Sometimes ya just gotta go home and clean brass....
And FWIW, I carry JHP in my EDC, I practice with JHP and my EDC.
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DevilDog72
US Veteran
I went through a BLM demonstration with a J frame...
not again...M&P 2.0...
not again...M&P 2.0...
And a church shooting in CA today with one dead and four critical.
Regarding the store shooting, was surprised by the reports the security officer, a retired LEO LT, was making chest hits on the ballistic vest shooter, as my understanding is armor = shoot out the legs.
No longer comfortable with a pocket LCP except for the immediate neighborhood,a 365 is carried now when going anywhere else.
Regarding the store shooting, was surprised by the reports the security officer, a retired LEO LT, was making chest hits on the ballistic vest shooter, as my understanding is armor = shoot out the legs.
No longer comfortable with a pocket LCP except for the immediate neighborhood,a 365 is carried now when going anywhere else.
One of the techniques that some teachers advocate these days is the so-called "zipper" technique. That is, make the first shot in the low abdomen/hip area, then work your way up with 2-3 more rounds after that. The idea is that the first round should have some effect even if the subject is wearing body armor as it would be below the vest. If the shot is into the hip it might even break him down, and it might well connect with a subject who has ducked where a higher shot may miss. The next two might have no effect on an armored subject, but a 4th round should be high, into the collar bone or even head area. Of course, that means fast, accurate shooting and it leaves almost nothing for other subjects if you're carrying a 5 shot J frame. And it requires a fair amount of training if your old habit is to shoot center mass. Still, it seems worth thinking about since more and more bad guys seem to be showing up with body armor these days.
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And when the target moves as quickly, turning right or left, or simply dropping prone more quickly than the one returning fire? Ever shoot at a sideways, bentover, moving target? What if the target screams, "I'm a police officer," or, "Cease fire..," then shoots while you hesitate?
My point is not to denigrate better training, but to try to ensure folks know it is their eyes and minds that must be open to considering and instantly responding to actions they simply had not anticpated. Folks love to pontificate about equipment, ammo, and marksmanship, but tactics and a focused mind are at least as important, if not far moreso.
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Very good post. And to expound on "instantly responding"...this is one of the most eye-opening aspects of a potentially deadly confrontation. Things happen at incredible speed, speed many of us have no concept of.
