Problem Older Gent at Our Club Range

[steamloco76]

We have a dicey problem at our gun club's outdoor ranges. One of the elder members of the club, he is in his late 70's and has been a member for 40 years, is getting either senile or has Alzheimer's Disease. The club is in the country and his property is adjoining the club. He has taken it upon himself to "police" the range every time he hears shooting on weekdays. He wears a pistol on his side and usually has a lever action rifle with him. Anybody he hasn't known for 50 years, he accosts verbally and demands to see their membership card. Even when members show him their cards, he demands they leave the range because "nobody gave you permission to shoot here!! And thells them they will be arrested if they don't leave NOW!!" Then he cocks the rifle. People leave because they don't want a shooting at the club. Several have not renewed their memberships this year.

He has been to meetings where he was warned about his behavior and has had his keys to the range gate taken. That did not help as he just rides his quad up through the woods instead of driving over. We've tried to have him arrested for trespassing, however police response time for trespassing is an hour or more. The club has over 400 acres, so a chain link fence is fiscally impossible. His family doesn't believe he is a problem. So far nobody has had the stones to just ignore him and stay. I'm afraid if they do, he may shoot them and then there goes our club.

What in the heck do you do in a situation like this???

 

[3daman!]

order of protection

 

[Sprefix]

I think I'd invite the local PD or sheriff out to the range on my dime and see what happens.

 

[redneckemt]

Friends and family. Talk to his, an intervention might be in order. Sounds like he s at the point in his life where he needs to trust his guns to someone else.

Might also see about a Court ordered psyc eval.

 

[Rule3]

Baker Act if your State has such.

 

[g_conway]

You say the PD is slow on a trespass, if he has "threatend" anyone, get them to report it and get him flagged as an armed 5150. Next time you call the PD refer to hin as an ARMED trespasser. between that 5150 and armed trespass, they should show up quick.

 

[Atulip]

If he's demanding people leave property he has no ownership in, then brandishing his firearm and using it in a threatening demeanor he needs to be put away. Otherwise it sounds like he'll take it too far and get put down.

It sounds like he's still a member himself. That should be removed. Then express that the police will be contacted if he steps foot there again. Inform members that if a crazy old MWAG harasses them, to call the police and inform whoevers working.

Cameras with good audio might be worth looking into. Get a clip of the guy "policing" the place should be enough to keep him away.

 

[amazingflapjack]

In my view, the one with the knowledge of what is happening bears the moral responsibility. If it were me, I would continue to do what ever there was to do, otherwise it will be just another case of "what a shame" when what ever happens ultimately happens. Make an issue out of it, otherwise, apathy and political correctness could get someone hurt or killed. I would send certfied letters to range management with return receits on them, as well as the law enforcement agencys.

 

[labworm]

The gentleman is loading a round in his rifle while telling people to leave?

I think the police will definitely show up and take care of the problem mighty fast.

 

[MTS Cop]

He needs to not have those guns anymore. If the family won't do it maybe the local PD can be petitioned to get a mental health warrant and remove the guns from him. His condition will only get worse and the likelyhood of him shooting someone will increase. I really can't believe the local cops aren't responding to this. I hate it when people call in fake gun runs to get us to show up, but this guy is menacing people with a firearm. Don't be shy about calling 911 and saying there is a man with a gun menacing people. I don't think an elderly man with Alzheimers should be getting arrested, but you need to start a paper trail of his behavior. These situations are always sticky, good luck.

 

[Steve in Vermont]

I've dealt with folks like this and the potential for a disaster is very real. And it's after this happens that everyone asks "what could we have done differently?". The best course of action is to remove all firearms from this persons possession, no matter what you have to do to accomplish it. If he comes to the range to harass people that's another issue but it shouldn't be with a firearm. Someone in an official capacity needs to talk to his relatives, remind them of this and the fact that they could be held civilly liable should he harm someone. Contact as many officials as possible. (And along these lines E-mail can be your best friend. When you E-mail an official, cc everyone else, and I mean everyone. These officials will realize numerous people are aware of the potential disaster and not want their prints all over this if it goes south.) The more people involved the better. And keep a record of everything, copies of E-mails, letters, phone conversations, dates, times, etc. Don't give up on this, the potential for harm is to great.

 

[bitstream]

Definitely record it with a camera. Most cell phone videos should be a minimum. Audio would really help too.

When the police show up, that should help out a LOT to demonstrate the problem. Even if the guy has left by then, a recording will prove the case.

 

[mstuhr]

Mental illness

Howdy,
Watching a family member suffer through this years ago leaves me with the impression that they don't know and wont remember what they do.
How sad. A long time member and shooter.
All the orders of protection wont keep it from happening again.
I hope the family will be able to deal with it.
I hate to see the police called as the old guy is as likely to get shot as a cop.
Is it too far to walk easily? Maybe a little sabotage to the 4-wheeler would help (By the family)
I hope there is a happy ending to all of this and the man is not treated like a criminal. His behavior is criminal but he is just an old, mentally worn out fellow who thinks he is trying to help.
Best of luck
Mike

Here is an addition. I don't know if it would help, but I would think you should make the membership aware of it to the last man. Also, I would give everyone his first name. He may be more relaxed if people greet him by name. He may think they are a forgotten acquaintance and calm down.
Again
Good Luck
Mike

 

[oldafsp]

Twice I have seen the results of this situation. A family member seriously injured, and a neighbor fatally shot.

The longer you wait the more dangerous the situation becomes. Everyone that this man has encountered in these events needs to come forward.

I don't know what the law in PA allows for, but supporting depositions from those who have had contact with him while he is armed need to be presented to a judge for a commitment order.

Don't involve the family. As much as you would like to as a sign of being considerate. If they truly recognize what is going on with his mental stability, they would have all ready sought intervention.

Neither the club members or family at this point have the training or ability to help. Only the the law can intervene immediately and prevent a tragedy from occuring.

Alzheimers and dementia are serious mental health issues. People may act rationally one moment, and totally uncontrollable the next. It is a horrible disease and beyond the control of the patient.

I wouldn't wait for the worst to happen. Good luck.

 

[USAF385]

I hope this situation gets taken care of soon. We are going to start to see more and more warm days in the next few months... meaning more and more shooters.

The man's family needs to be involved. Others have mentioned getting video of him, either from mounted cameras or cell phones, and showing it to the police. The video could also be shown to his family. They need to know.

If he's living alone, he's going to need assistance. An assisted living facility would be a good option for someone in his state, but obviously his time for gun ownership has passed.

This one hits close to home because, like so many others, I've had to deal with Alzheimer's and Dementia in my family. Both my paternal grandfather and maternal grandmother. My grandfather ended up in an assisted living facility which worked well for him. He had his car and was free to come and go.... for a while.

That stopped when one day he ended up heading south on a northbound highway. He got on the exit ramp and headed straight into oncoming traffic. Somehow, he wound up on the side of the road and nobody was hurt. Luckily someone stopped and waited with him as the cops / ambulance came. That night in the hospital, my father and his siblings made the decision he wasn't going to drive anymore.

Once he was found outside on the grounds of the assisted living facility at night with a flashlight. When security went to talk to him he was frightened and told them to stay away because he had a knife. He didn't, but he didn't know the men or understand who they were. He most likely didn't even know where he was, but at that moment he was being confronted by two men at night and he was understandably afraid.

My grandmother was different. She had been unable to get around very well for years, even before her Alzheimer's started to set in. She lived at home with my uncle. Watching her deteriorate mentally was horrible. It started with small things... forgetting something you talked about a few days earlier, not remembering where certain grand kids were at the time (meaning where they went to school, worked etc). Then it quickly progressed to where her short term memory was getting worse and worse. She's ask you the same question every five minutes. At this point, I could tell she didn't remember my name. I don't think I had heard her call me by my name in the past 2 or more years. I knew she knew I was her grandson, and that was great. She took a sudden turn for the worse this past Thanksgiving, and died in early January. In her last month or so there would be days where she was alert and days you could tell she was in a thick fog.

Very, very sad and heart wrenching disease.

 

[M29since14]

All the orders of protection wont keep it from happening again.
I hope the family will be able to deal with it.

True and true. Protective orders are useless pieces of paper. This man is probably not even aware what he is doing is both illegal and extremely dangerous. His kids need to be contacted and they need to handle the situation. I would sure try to keep the police out of it if he was my Dad or an old member of our club. Around here, there is a very good chance he would end up like Swiss cheese.

 

[tacreload]

A good friend of mine called me from work about two years ago.She is a cook and server at a local assisted living facility.One of the residents who still had access to his vehicle and could come and go pretty much as he pleased had gone to a local gun shop,purchased a handgun,returned to his room,locked himself in his bathroom and proceeded to commit suicide with his newly purchased weapon.He was in his late seventies and in the early stages of alzheimers.According to her he was a sweet old guy and never gave a hint of doing this.The gentleman mentioned in this post has definitely telegraphed his intentions.Hopefully something will be done before it turns to tragedy.

 

[nawilson]

There is a lot of good advice here. I do think that his family is the first step, but if they continue to deny the problem, then the legal system is your only recourse. I don't think jail is the answer for him, but that is the first step towards mental incompetency hearings or may wake up his family to the danger.

Do the laws in PA allow for citizens to swear out arrest warrants? In GA we have procedures that allow citizens to appear in front of a magistrate who hears the facts and determines if probable cause exists. Normally, the judge likes to see that the police already have had some involvement (normally a case number works). The accused has the opportunity to appear to state their side, too. Though seldom used these days, the process was designed for those times that the police couldn't make an arrest, which is what the fundamental system problem seems to be.

 

[cmort666]

Getting an order of protection doesn't stop somebody from doing something, but it can make it more difficult. If the order specifies that his firearms be removed from his control, that will definitely LESSEN the likelihood of a fatal confrontation.

His membership needs to be terminated and documentation of is being barred from the property needs to be generated.

Threatening somebody with a firearm without legal justification is a crime, regardless of whether there's an order of protection. The next time he assaults somebody on the property, the police need to be called and FORCED to confront the situation. If they refuse to, then THEY are a problem as well and need to be dealt with. Of course they have no legal liability, but they've got TONS of public exposure if they know there's a problem of this nature and refuse to act.

 

[arjay]

My father had alzheimers and it affects victims in different ways,but the main thing to remember is they are not rational and have no short term memory.You really need to get his family involved and the first thing they need to do is take his guns away before he hurts someone.If they waffle,you need to get the people he has threatened together and talk to the law.After that I would just stay away from the range until the problem is resolved.