Problem with M&P 10mm + Customer Service Nightmare

[mark_lives_things]

I was thrilled when S&W first announced the 10mm M&P. Unfortunately, purchasing that pistol was the start of an unending nightmare I'll do my best to condense a long story. Video documentation can be found in a link at the end of this post.

As soon I got the pistol in mid-December, I took it straight from the gun counter to the range. My enthusiasm for the pistol was dashed when it ejected the magazine under recoil. No, I didn't accidentally hit the magazine release. Ammo used was a mix of S&B 180gr JHP and Underwood 220gr hardcasts. The uncommanded magazine ejections happened repeatedly and with both magazines that came with the pistol.

I sent the pistol (and its magazines) back to S&W within a few days, per their instructions. I described the problem in detail and specified which ammo I was using. The pistol and mags were returned to me in early February, with a note saying that no repairs had been performed because they couldn't replicate the problem I was having.

I immediately tested the pistol experienced the exact same problem as before, and this time I took videos (see below).

Once again, I sent the pistol and mags back to S&W, per their instructions. Once again, I included a note that the described the problem, ammo used, etc. And I begged them not to send an unrepaired pistol back to me a second time -- I offered to share the videos with them (they weren't interested), and I really went out of my way to offer any information that might help them to diagnose the problem and fix the pistol.

The pistol and mags were returned to me in early March -- once again, with no repairs, and the magazine-ejecting problem persisting. And once again I got it on video.

I called S&W. This time they speculated that there might be a problem with my magazines (which had already been back to the factory twice). They told me to send those magazines back in exchange for new ones. This didn't make much sense to me: it seems unlikely that I would have *two* faulty magazines, and besides, wouldn't this have been tested on the magazines' two trips back to the factory already?

But S&W wasn't willing to consider any other remedial action, so I sent my magazines back to the factory for a *third* time. The magazines arrived on 3/14, and, two weeks later, I still hadn't received word of new magazines being shipped out to me. So, I called them up today to figure out what was going on.

This time, the customer service rep latched onto the 220gr Underwood hardcasts as being the cause of the problem I experienced. There are three problems with that:
1. I have made S&W aware of the ammo I have been using since the start of this process in December. *If* the ammo is of concern, why wasn't that addressed months ago?
2. Underwood explicitly markets their 10mm ammo as falling within SAAMI pressure specs, and M&P 10mm pistols are supposed to be able to run SAAMI 10mm ammo. (See here: Please Wait... | Cloudflare )
3. I'm currently unable to test my gun with other ammo because, per S&W's instructions, I sent my magazines back to them, and they have not sent me the magazines that they owe me

I'm really at a loss. This has been an absolute nightmare, and I'm not sure what else to do at this point. I'm open to suggestions.

https://twitter.com/marklivesthings/status/1501385575168937989

Update: Since making this thread, I've found several cases of other people experiencing the same problem. I'll link each one I find below.
S&W M&P 10mm Pistols: Prevalence of the Magazine Drop Malfunction | by Mark Houser | Aug, 2022 | Medium

 

[swsig]

Welcome to the Forum.

I don't see you touching the magazine release in the videos, so that explanation is out.

Do you firmly tug on the base plate after you insert the magazine to insure that it is fully seated and latched? A falsely seated magazine can be more of a problem when shooting plus-one. It takes a pretty firm palm smack to get my mags properly seated in my M&Ps with a plus-one load.

I don't know if your model has a trigger over-travel adjustment screw, but if it does and it's not properly adjusted, it can interfere with the magazine latch operation.

It's outrageous that S&W cannot get you replacement mags in a timely manner.

Let us know how it eventually works out. Good Luck!

 

[mark_lives_things]

Yep, magazine is absolutely fully seated and "clicked" in. The first time it happened, I naturally assumed I must not have fully seated the magazine -- I *wish* this problem could be attributed to such a simple mistake, that would have saved me a lot of trouble. But that's definitely not the culprit, unfortunately.

 

[hardluk1]

How about trying a more normal 10mm ammo like 165gr.fed or hornady not underwoods ammo first after you cleaned well inspected and lubed that new pistol . What comes on them new is not lube but a preservative

You might even hand that 10mm pistol to a shooting buddy and let him shoot it with ammo of his choice .

Maybe all handguns should be able to fire all saami spec ammo but thats not always the case ether . S&B is one that causes lots of problems in different cartridges .

First thing I would have done was to remove the mag catch and see how well it fit a mag !! Measure bother where they engage too . Then reassembled with slide removed I would watched how the mag with no spring or follower fit and lock together then with the spring and follower and with a loaded mag and no slide still . If the mag catch is slightly long a bullet might touch it and cause the mag to fall free . You can check this much as a novice .

 

[GaCop]

After reading this, I'm sooooo glad I passed up the 10mm and bought the M&P45. Sounds like dealing with S&W customer service is like dealing with Taurus CS.

 

[mark_lives_things]

How about trying a more normal 10mm ammo like 165gr.fed or hornady not underwoods ammo first after you cleaned well inspected and lubed that new pistol . What comes on them new is not lube but a preservative

You might even hand that 10mm pistol to a shooting buddy and let him shoot it with ammo of his choice .

Maybe all handguns should be able to fire all saami spec ammo but thats not always the case ether . S&B is one that causes lots of problems in different cartridges .

First thing I would have done was to remove the mag catch and see how well it fit a mag !! Measure bother where they engage too . Then reassembled with slide removed I would watched how the mag with no spring or follower fit and lock together then with the spring and follower and with a loaded mag and no slide still . If the mag catch is slightly long a bullet might touch it and cause the mag to fall free . You can check this much as a novice .

I was testing the pistol with the sort of ammo I want and reasonably expect a 10mm pistol to be able run. If a 10mm pistol is only able to run light ammo, there's no point to it -- a .40 would be more practical in that case, and I already have .40s.

 

[mark_lives_things]

After reading this, I'm sooooo glad I passed up the 10mm and bought the M&P45. Sounds like dealing with S&W customer service is like dealing with Taurus CS.

It's incredible how bad it has been. I'm so disappointed. I have tons of S&W guns, and I *had* a lot of brand loyalty, before they put me through this.

 

[Frank Black]

I was testing the pistol with the sort of ammo I want and reasonably expect a 10mm pistol to be able run. If a 10mm pistol is only able to run light ammo, there's no point to it -- a .40 would be more practical in that case, and I already have .40s.

Exactly. It’s not a “10mm” pistol. It’s a fake wannabe “10mm” pistol.

A solid, well-engineered 10mm pistol should be able to run reliably shooting all levels of 10mm factory ammo with, at worst, a recoil spring swap. A super-stiff spring that handles the full-power UW/DT/BB-type loads (and equivalent handloads) might be too stiff to reliably cycle the diluted 40-level stuff.

Conversely, the consensus across the various gun-boards (thus far) seems to be that the 10mm M&Ps are under-sprung right out of the box, ... something S&W’s R&D folks should’ve caught IF they’d actually studied the 10mm cartridge in all its different energy levels and bullet-weights - which basically consists of three levels or ranges:

(1) the watered-down, .40-duplicating junk ammo range (e.g., FBI-Lite - 180grns @ 980fps);

(2) the mid-to-upper midrange ammo (e.g., Sig’s 180grn @ 1250/Hornady 180grn XTP @ 1275fps);

(3) the high-performance to full-power/max range ammo (e.g., UW/DT/BB - 180grns @ 1350fps+).

All three ranges, of course, include equivalent-power reloads.

That said, there also seems to be a consensus that more problems are being/have been encountered with the 4” M&P model than with the 4.6” model.

Maybe the longer slide & barrel has something to do with it (?).

 

[scott1970]

I hate to hear this. I had considered buying on of these, but I'll stick with what I have for the time being.

 

[2wheels]

How many rounds are you loading in the mag? How are you loading the first round in the chamber?

 

[mark_lives_things]

That said, there also seems to be a consensus that more problems are being/have been encountered with the 4” M&P model than with the 4.6” model.

Maybe the longer slide & barrel has something to do with it (?).

Mine's a 4.6, FWIW. It doesn't seem to have any problems cycling -- unfortunately, with the mag falling out after 1 - 3 shots, there's not much for it to cycle...

 

[mark_lives_things]

How many rounds are you loading in the mag? How are you loading the first round in the chamber?

Full mag, chambering from magazine. So 14+1.

 

[Inusuit]

How many rounds are you loading in the mag? How are you loading the first round in the chamber?

If the magazines are locked in place as Mark reports, it shouldn't matter to magazine retention how many rounds were in them although a full magazine exerts more pressure on the magazine release. I don't see how loading the first round would matter. From what Mark has reported, I think the problem is not with him or how he manipulates the pistol.

I'm disappointed that S&W hasn't fixed this. Terrible customer service.

 

[WR Moore]

If I may here, the above is one of those reasons not to be one of the first to jump on a new product. While new products are carefully designed and tested, they're generally tool room products or very early pre-production versions. Additionally, there's no testing program that's going to reproduce the wide variables that the general public (and actual production) is going to present.

Back in 1992 I was issued an early production 1006 (along with everyone else working there) and had random extraction issues. IIRC, there were about 3 different sets of extractor springs by the time everyone's problems were solved. Possibly a couple different extractors. I'd have to go find the official parts book to confirm.

 

[mark_lives_things]

If I may here, the above is one of those reasons not to be one of the first to jump on a new product. While new products are carefully designed and tested, they're generally tool room products or very early pre-production versions. Additionally, there's no testing program that's going to reproduce the wide variables that the general public (and actual production) is going to present.

Back in 1992 I was issued an early production 1006 (along with everyone else working there) and had random extraction issues. IIRC, there were about 3 different sets of extractor springs by the time everyone's problems were solved. Possibly a couple different extractors. I'd have to go find the official parts book to confirm.

Of course there's a risk to being an earlier adopter of anything, but 1) somebody's gotta do it and 2) it's the company's responsibility to fix the problems that the early adopters bring to the company's attention.

My grievance is not that the pistol is defective. My grievance is that I still have a defective pistol after three months, two trips back to factory, and countless hours spent trying to get S&W to fix my gun.

 

[M29since14]

I'm sorry to read about your troubles. For me, over nearly five decades now, S&W CS has always been problematic. Sometimes great, sometimes "hang up now!" Overall, I guess I have been treated pretty well, but those bad examples do tend to stick in one's mind. Some people just should not be allowed to try to handle customer service.

Getting back to the nature of the post, yes, absolutely - any respectable 10mm pistol needs to handle full-power 10mm loads. For me, that is a 200 at 1200, which I believe is the original "intent" of the 10mm round. I've heard through the years that the Norma 200 gr. FMJ-FN load was actually closer to 1150, so I guess I'd be happy with that, but certainly nothing less. 10mm gallery loads are fine and dandy for whatever use people may have for them, but the pistol should be able to operate like a true 10mm.

I hope S&W gets things sorted out soon. I'd like to buy one of these guns (4.6", or preferably 5", with safety, and normal height sights) but for now, I'm on the sidelines.

 

[mark_lives_things]

I'll throw this out there, too: this seems to be a problem with my pistol in particular, not a general defect of the M&P 10mm line. I've searched, but haven't seen reports of this happening to other people. (Edit: no longer true -- I've found lots of reports now)

I'm totally understanding of the fact that, when a company is churning out thousands of pistols, some will have defects. That's inevitable.

What I can't accept is the way that this problem has been handled (well...*not* handled) from a customer service perspective.

 

[waffles]

Bummer to hear S&W's customer service continues to inhale vigorously, and sorry about your pistol. That's a really weird malfunction.

I bought a Glock 20 recently, but was presented with a pretty good deal on a MP10. My previous poor S&W customer service and QC experiences kept me sticking to my original plan, and im glad I did.

 

[dla]

Shouldn't there be a minimum number of posts before you can start complaining?

 

[dla]

How about trying a more normal 10mm ammo like 165gr.fed or hornady not underwoods ammo first after you cleaned well inspected and lubed that new pistol . What comes on them new is not lube but a preservative

You might even hand that 10mm pistol to a shooting buddy and let him shoot it with ammo of his choice .

Maybe all handguns should be able to fire all saami spec ammo but thats not always the case ether . S&B is one that causes lots of problems in different cartridges .

First thing I would have done was to remove the mag catch and see how well it fit a mag !! Measure bother where they engage too . Then reassembled with slide removed I would watched how the mag with no spring or follower fit and lock together then with the spring and follower and with a loaded mag and no slide still . If the mag catch is slightly long a bullet might touch it and cause the mag to fall free . You can check this much as a novice .

All excellent advice that the OP seems to have skipped over.