Problem with M&P 10mm + Customer Service Nightmare

[Autonomous]

It seems like many brands & models of 10mm pistols have more than their share of teething problems with guns recently released in that caliber.
I have not done as formal survey so maybe I'm all wet.

My take aways:
1) S&W needs to change direction and become accountable to its customers again.
2) If you have a 10mm that runs, hang on to it.

 

[mark_lives_things]

I've lurked on this forum for some years and am a member of another M&P forum, but it was your post that finally got me to join this forum.

I have an M&P 10mm 4.6" pistol that was built on 2/9/2022, that I bought new in mid February 2022.
Mine works flawlessly with Underwood 155 grain JHP, 180 grain JHP, and S&B 180 grain JHP.
I love this pistol!


Then yesterday for the first time (10/13/2022) I tested a full magazine of Doubletap 200 grain hard cast rounds.
After firing no more than two rounds, the magazine fell out and it stovepiped.
And it continued repeatedly jamming or failing to chamber a round at all with the magazine falling out.
I finally gave up trying to finish the magazine.

I AM OF THE OPINION that it IS the Doubletap 200 grain hard cast ammo that causes my magazine to drop out.
(I don't have any Underwood 220 grain hard cast to check this with)

BEFORE I EXPLAIN,
NOTE THAT THE 10MM AUTO SAAMI SPEC HAS NO TOLERANCE FOR THE MAXIMUM WIDTH AT THE TIP OF A FLAT TIPPED BULLET.

After I got home, I took three magazines and partially loaded them with Doubletap 200 grain Hard Cast, another with Underwood 180 grain JHP, and a third one with Underwood 155 grain JHP.


When I pushed the rounds down in the magazine that had the Doubletap 200 grain hard cast rounds, I noticed that as they passed the notch in the magazine that the magazine release holds the magazine, that the wide front end of the hard cast bullet came clear out to the edge of the notch hole.
This would push the magazine release tab that holds the magazine in the pistol out of the hole, THUS releasing the magazine.

When I did this same thing with the 180 and 155 grain JHP rounds that taper more quickly down to a smaller bullet tip, there was more space left between the bullet and the magazine notch opening when the bullet passed the opening.
THUS leaving more room for the catch to keep holding onto the magazine.

So I do believe that wide enough flat ended bullets can cause the magazine to be released as the pistol is fired.

AGAIN, NOTE THAT THE 10MM AUTO SAAMI SPEC HAS NO TOLERANCE FOR THE MAXIMUM WIDTH AT THE TIP OF A FLAT TIPPED BULLET.

On the flip side, note that a Glock magazine has a notch in the plastic that holds the magazine in that doesn't extend into the magazine, which could be why Glocks don't have trouble with the wide tipped hard cast bullets interfering with the magazine release.

So in conclusion, I just won't shoot cartridges in my M&P 10mm 4.6" that have wide flat bullet tips.
As that's the only round that gives me trouble with ejecting the magazine while firing.

I plan to get ahold of some Underwood 200 grain hard cast rounds and test those, as they appear to have a narrower flat tip than the Doubletap rounds do.

I don't plan to test 220 grain hard cast rounds because my Glocks also have trouble with them sometimes and 200 grain hard cast was always enough for me.

Thank you for your contribution to this conversation!

One thing I want to reiterate: in addition to 200 and 220 grain Underwood hardcast, I also had this problem with 180 grain S&B JHP rounds, perhaps for the very reason that you identified. I just want to stress that while this problem seems to present most consistently with heavy-for-caliber hardcast rounds, it's not limited to those.

I want to make sure the extent of the design problem is not understated.

As a sidenote, I've replaced my 10mm M&P with a Sig XTen. The latter runs everything just fine, no mag drops or other malfunctions.

 

[mark_lives_things]

And for those of you who haven't seen this post yet, I've now found reports of this mag drop problem happening with 19 different M&P 10mm pistols. Idk how S&W can possibly pretend like there's nothing to see here.
S&W M&P 10mm Pistols: Prevalence of the Magazine Drop Malfunction | by Mark Houser | Aug, 2022 | Medium

 

[mark_lives_things]

(Well, I suppose it would actually be 20 pistols now. I haven't added the latest report from this page yet.)

 

[Anton Chigurh]

Thank you for your contribution to this conversation!

One thing I want to reiterate: in addition to 200 and 220 grain Underwood hardcast, I also had this problem with 180 grain S&B JHP rounds, perhaps for the very reason that you identified. I just want to stress that while this problem seems to present most consistently with heavy-for-caliber hardcast rounds, it's not limited to those.

I want to make sure the extent of the design problem is not understated.

As a sidenote, I've replaced my 10mm M&P with a Sig XTen. The latter runs everything just fine, no mag drops or other malfunctions.

The 180 grain S&B HP hangs up in my XTen magazines. If you load 6, they feed and fire just fine. More than that and don't come back above the magazine notches. The ones above the notches just fall out if you invert the magazine. Those HPs are wide, like flying ash trays.
S&B 180 grain solids run flawlessly. As do other tapered ogives.

 

[mrshyvley]

Thank you for your contribution to this conversation!

One thing I want to reiterate: in addition to 200 and 220 grain Underwood hardcast, I also had this problem with 180 grain S&B JHP rounds, perhaps for the very reason that you identified. I just want to stress that while this problem seems to present most consistently with heavy-for-caliber hardcast rounds, it's not limited to those.

I want to make sure the extent of the design problem is not understated.

As a sidenote, I've replaced my 10mm M&P with a Sig XTen. The latter runs everything just fine, no mag drops or other malfunctions.

I'm sorry to hear of all the trouble you had with both of your 10mm 4.6" pistols.

I read your post earlier today, and just to be sure I loaded up two magazines of S&B 180 grain JHP to check them again.
On the box it says "JHP 10mm AUTO, 180grs 11,7g, SB10B".

They both fired flawlessly as they always have with my pistol.

My made on 2/9/2022 pistol has worked perfectly out of the box with Underwood 155 grain JHP, Underwood 180 grain JHP and S&B 180 grain JHP.

The Doubletap 200 grain hard cast rounds are the ONLY rounds that haven't worked flawlessly for me.
The bullet tips in these are significantly wider than the Underwood 200 grain hard cast rounds.
AND the OAL of these rounds are less than SAMMI spec.

SO I would like to order in and try some Underwood 200 grain hard cast rounds when I get a chance.

 

[Qtip]

As a sidenote, I've replaced my 10mm M&P with a Sig XTen. The latter runs everything just fine, no mag drops or other malfunctions.

Is not the Sig XTen based on the P320, a platform with a, deservedly or not, reputation for going off without user input?

 

[mark_lives_things]

It's a 320, yes.

 

[Qtip]

I hope you don't have any issues with that.

 

[Anton Chigurh]

Not trying to hijack anything but maybe this is apropos

"Thank you for your inquiry regarding the recent litigation and media reports regarding the safety of the P320 model pistol.

It is important to remember that lawsuit allegations are not fact, and the claims made in the various lawsuits you reference are just that – unproven allegations. Despite extensive discovery and litigation (spanning almost five years), no one has been able to replicate a discharge of the P320 model pistol without a trigger pull, and no credible theory for how the firearm could discharge without a trigger pull has ever been proposed.

To date, only one case alleging a discharge of a P320 without trigger pull has proceeded to a full trial, with the jury returning a verdict in SIG SAUER's favor on all counts presented, having not been swayed by the plaintiff's unproven, unscientific theories as to how the firearm could discharge without a trigger pull.

The P320 model pistol is as safe as any other modern pistol, and in many cases safer than competing offerings. The firearm was specifically designed to eliminate the need to pull the trigger during disassembly, a requirement common to many competitors and often contributory to unintentional discharges. Moreover, multiple, and redundant internal safety features ensure that the firearm will not and cannot discharge without a trigger pull, as has been falsely claimed in the lawsuits and media reports you reference. With more than 2 million sold to date, the P320 model pistol is used effectively and safely every day.

Please feel free to contact us again if we can assist you with any further questions about any SIG SAUER products.

Sincerely,"

 

[Tiribulus]

I could be totally wrong about this, but the 10mm seems like one of those cartridges that just doesn't lend itself to quick and easy adoption into existing platforms.

In other words, it seems like it takes more than some tweaks to an existing line to make it run right. You either design a gun for it or you have to significantly re-engineer some stuff in an existing line in order for it to play nice as a new member of that line.

Like I say. I could be wrong.

 

[mrshyvley]

I could be totally wrong about this, but the 10mm seems like one of those cartridges that just doesn't lend itself to quick and easy adoption into existing platforms.

In other words, it seems like it takes more than some tweaks to an existing line to make it run right. You either design a gun for it or you have to significantly re-engineer some stuff in an existing line in order for it to play nice as a new member of that line.

Like I say. I could be wrong.

I don't know whether you're right or wrong, but the 10mm Auto round sure has a wide range of loadings compared to many other cartidges.

To make a pistol for 10mm Auto that would IDEALLY shoot all of the various loadings without some tweaking would be hard.

I know even with my Glock Model 20, I had to experiment with recoil springs to shoot the heavier hard cast rounds so it didn't throw the brass into the next county.

 

[mark_lives_things]

To make a pistol for 10mm Auto that would IDEALLY shoot all of the various loadings without some tweaking would be hard.

Maybe. But it wouldn't be hard for manufacturers to be transparent about which loads their guns are designed to function with. If S&W had communicated up front that their pistol was not designed with (very popular, incidentally) heavy hardcast loads in mind, I simply never would have bought one in the first place.

 

[malph]

I don't know whether you're right or wrong, but the 10mm Auto round sure has a wide range of loadings compared to many other cartidges.

To make a pistol for 10mm Auto that would IDEALLY shoot all of the various loadings without some tweaking would be hard.

I know even with my Glock Model 20, I had to experiment with recoil springs to shoot the heavier hard cast rounds so it didn't throw the brass into the next county.

I think you nailed it. It's that wide range of loads and bullet shapes that is challenging for the gun designers.

 

[malph]

Maybe. But it wouldn't be hard for manufacturers to be transparent about which loads their guns are designed to function with. If S&W had communicated up front that their pistol was not designed with (very popular, incidentally) heavy hardcast loads in mind, I simply never would
have bought one in the first place.

Just reading between the lines, I don't think Smith even thought to test their design for compatibility with things like Underwood's offerings.

Smith is not the only one. I read of issues with other manufacturer's 10mm guns with the heavy hardcast stuff.

Through this entire debacle, one of the interesting things happening is Underwood, which was previously considered a small niche ammo manufacturer, is now being considered the acid test for how good a 10mm handgun is.

I don't know how this is going to develop. Will handgun manufacturer embrace Underwood and start designing their guns around the round or will ammo manufacturers develop loads that work better in current 10mm handgun offerings while delivering the penetration associated with Underwood's 10mm hardcast loads???

My overall impression is the plastic 10mm handgun market is still maturing.

 

[mrshyvley]

Maybe. But it wouldn't be hard for manufacturers to be transparent about which loads their guns are designed to function with. If S&W had communicated up front that their pistol was not designed with (very popular, incidentally) heavy hardcast loads in mind, I simply never would have bought one in the first place.

I agree in theory.
But S&W isn't alone in this.
No manufacturers of 10mm pistols I know of announce that their pistol may require tweaking to reliably shoot ALL cartridges from all manufacturers, let alone hard cast rounds from all manufacturers.

The amount of ongoing testing to keep up with this would be astronomical for any manufacturer.

In my case, I'm still not convinced that my M&P 10mm 4.6 won't shoot Underwood 200 grain hard cast rounds until I prove it to myself.

The Underwoods are narrower at the tip, and I assume within SAAMI OAL spec, which the wide tipped, too short, Doubletap 200 grain hard casts I have aren't.

You reported that both of your M&P 10mm pistols wouldn't fire S&B 180 grain JHP, yet mine shoots them and everything else perfectly, except the wide tipped, OAL out of SAAMI spec Doubletap 200 grain hard cast rounds.

So I'll need to get some Underwood rounds in and see for myself.

Let me add that the M&P 10mm 4.6 has full chamber support, which I like, but I'm sure we're seeing a trade-off with reliably feeding all bullet shapes.

 

[Autonomous]

1911s have evolved several styles of magazine lips, some are optimized for target, self-defense rounds, etc.
Maybe the 10mm round needs this sort of development.

 

[LVSteve]

I hope you don't have any issues with that.

That issue is long since fixed by a change to the trigger.

 

[southernpatriot]

Same problem here, with modest loads of quality ammo

Just got home from the range with my new 10mm M&P. Same problem you describe. Used only 180 grain FMJ range ammo from Sellier and Bellot, which has always worked well for me in other guns. Taking the utmost care to stay well clear of the mag release, on both sides, as well as locking the mags forcefully into place and tugging on them before firing, the magazines drop about 40% of the time. Both of the supplied mags do this. It's disheartening to read about your experience with S&W service.

It's too bad - because other than the mags falling out, it's a sweet-shooting gun!

 

[mrshyvley]

Just got home from the range with my new 10mm M&P. Same problem you describe. Used only 180 grain FMJ range ammo from Sellier and Bellot, which has always worked well for me in other guns. Taking the utmost care to stay well clear of the mag release, on both sides, as well as locking the mags forcefully into place and tugging on them before firing, the magazines drop about 40% of the time. Both of the supplied mags do this. It's disheartening to read about your experience with S&W service.

It's too bad - because other than the mags falling out, it's a sweet-shooting gun!

Wow, this is crazy.
I've fired S&B 180 JHP (not FMJ) out of mine and it fires them perfectly among others except Doubletap 200 grain hard casts.

Here's an idea which might flush out the problem, as I have ANOTHER idea of what could also cause the magazine dropping out from more recent tests.

Try firing it while pushing in on the OPPOSITE SIDE of the pistol's magazine release.
This makes sure that recoil isn't causing the magazine release to release.

I say this because of something else I found in further testing with my 4.6" using Doubletap 200 grain hard cast rounds.

I found that when using a full magazine of them, if I pushed in on the opposite side of the pistol's magazine release to keep the magazine release from moving from recoil, the magazine DID NOT fall out.
BUT WHAT HAPPENED INSTEAD was, the round's wide flat end bullet jammed against the top opening of the chamber.

THIS makes me wonder if when the round jams like this, does the slide closing cause leverage that pushes down on the magazine and pops it loose?

 

[southernpatriot]

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll try it next time!

 

[shawn mccarver]

I was thrilled when S&W first announced the 10mm M&P. Unfortunately, purchasing that pistol was the start of an unending nightmare I'll do my best to condense a long story. Video documentation can be found in a link at the end of this post.

As soon I got the pistol in mid-December, I took it straight from the gun counter to the range. My enthusiasm for the pistol was dashed when it ejected the magazine under recoil. No, I didn't accidentally hit the magazine release. Ammo used was a mix of S&B 180gr JHP and Underwood 220gr hardcasts. The uncommanded magazine ejections happened repeatedly and with both magazines that came with the pistol.

I sent the pistol (and its magazines) back to S&W within a few days, per their instructions. I described the problem in detail and specified which ammo I was using. The pistol and mags were returned to me in early February, with a note saying that no repairs had been performed because they couldn't replicate the problem I was having.

I immediately tested the pistol experienced the exact same problem as before, and this time I took videos (see below).

Once again, I sent the pistol and mags back to S&W, per their instructions. Once again, I included a note that the described the problem, ammo used, etc. And I begged them not to send an unrepaired pistol back to me a second time -- I offered to share the videos with them (they weren't interested), and I really went out of my way to offer any information that might help them to diagnose the problem and fix the pistol.

The pistol and mags were returned to me in early March -- once again, with no repairs, and the magazine-ejecting problem persisting. And once again I got it on video.

I called S&W. This time they speculated that there might be a problem with my magazines (which had already been back to the factory twice). They told me to send those magazines back in exchange for new ones. This didn't make much sense to me: it seems unlikely that I would have *two* faulty magazines, and besides, wouldn't this have been tested on the magazines' two trips back to the factory already?

But S&W wasn't willing to consider any other remedial action, so I sent my magazines back to the factory for a *third* time. The magazines arrived on 3/14, and, two weeks later, I still hadn't received word of new magazines being shipped out to me. So, I called them up today to figure out what was going on.

This time, the customer service rep latched onto the 220gr Underwood hardcasts as being the cause of the problem I experienced. There are three problems with that:
1. I have made S&W aware of the ammo I have been using since the start of this process in December. *If* the ammo is of concern, why wasn't that addressed months ago?
2. Underwood explicitly markets their 10mm ammo as falling within SAAMI pressure specs, and M&P 10mm pistols are supposed to be able to run SAAMI 10mm ammo. (See here: Please Wait... | Cloudflare )
3. I'm currently unable to test my gun with other ammo because, per S&W's instructions, I sent my magazines back to them, and they have not sent me the magazines that they owe me

I'm really at a loss. This has been an absolute nightmare, and I'm not sure what else to do at this point. I'm open to suggestions.

https://twitter.com/marklivesthings/status/1501385575168937989

Update: Since making this thread, I've found several cases of other people experiencing the same problem. I'll link each one I find below.
S&W M&P 10mm Pistols: Prevalence of the Magazine Drop Malfunction | by Mark Houser | Aug, 2022 | Medium

S&W has had persistent problems with magazines ejecting upon firing in the M&P line. Repeated reports on this forum involving the M&P, the compact, the Shield, etc., etc. I finally just gave up on the M&P line. This is a problem that should never occur, and I am unwilling to cut them any slack because it just might happen in a gun fight.

 

[mrshyvley]

S&W has had persistent problems with magazines ejecting upon firing in the M&P line. Repeated reports on this forum involving the M&P, the compact, the Shield, etc., etc. I finally just gave up on the M&P line. This is a problem that should never occur, and I am unwilling to cut them any slack because it just might happen in a gun fight.

I don't deny your personal experiences, but it's not universal.

In my case, I own an M&P Shield, two M&P 40/357 full sized, and now this M&P 10mm 4.6".
They've all worked flawlessly for me, except the Doubletap 200 grain hard cast rounds in my 10mm 4.6.

PLUS I shoot them better because the grip angle and ergonomics fit my hand much better than all the Glocks I've owned over the last 25+ years.
So I'm not ready to give up on them. YMMV

 

[malph]

I don't deny your personal experiences, but it's not universal.

In my case, I own an M&P Shield, two M&P 40/357 full sized, and now this M&P 10mm 4.6".
They've all worked flawlessly for me, except the Doubletap 200 grain hard cast rounds in my 10mm 4.6.

PLUS I shoot them better because the grip angle and ergonomics fit my hand much better than all the Glocks I've owned over the last 25+ years.
So I'm not ready to give up on them. YMMV

I have a Glock 40 10mm. While it's a decent gun, I'd trade it in in a heartbeat for an M&P 10mm if the M&Ps were working reliably.

I'm sure some or even most of them are working fine but there are just too many stories of people having issues with them at present.

Smith&Wesson's response is not helping either.

Seems prudent to wait a bit before jumping into this situation.

 

[mrshyvley]

I have a Glock 40 10mm. While it's a decent gun, I'd trade it in in a heartbeat for an M&P 10mm if the M&Ps were working reliably.

I'm sure some or even most of them are working fine but there are just too many stories of people having issues with them at present.

Smith&Wesson's response is not helping either.

Seems prudent to wait a bit before jumping into this situation.

I have a Glock Model 40 also that I use as a woods gun.
That 6" barrel with hard cast rounds is hard hitting.

I also had a Glock Model 20 for many years, but sold it not long after shooting my M&P 10mm 4.6".

So in my situation, it doesn't bother me that the M&P 10mm 4.6 has trouble with Doubletap 200 grain hard cast rounds, because I use my Glock Model 40 for that anyway.

BUT I'M STILL GOING TO KEEP TESTING TO FIND OUT WHY THE WIDE FLAT NOSED HARD CASTS HAVE TROUBLE.
I'm beginning to think it's a combination of things, and being the curious person I am, I'll have it as a project to see what I have to tweak to get it to work with flat nosed hard cast rounds.

 

[malph]

I have a Glock Model 40 also that I use as a woods gun.
That 6" barrel with hard cast rounds is hard hitting.

I also had a Glock Model 20 for many years, but sold it not long after shooting my M&P 10mm 4.6".

So in my situation, it doesn't bother me that the M&P 10mm 4.6 has trouble with Doubletap 200 grain hard cast rounds, because I use my Glock Model 40 for that anyway.

BUT I'M STILL GOING TO KEEP TESTING TO FIND OUT WHY THE WIDE FLAT NOSED HARD CASTS HAVE TROUBLE.
I'm beginning to think it's a combination of things, and being the curious person I am, I'll have it as a project to see what I have to tweak to get it to work with flat nosed hard cast rounds.

While my Glock 40 shoots well enough, the ergonomics of the M&P are just more to my liking.

In my hands, the Glock 40 feels like holding an oddly shaped 2x4. The M&P when held, feels like a gun.

I'm sure if I was a dedicated Glock guy I would feel differently.

 

[mrshyvley]

While my Glock 40 shoots well enough, the ergonomics of the M&P are just more to my liking.

In my hands, the Glock 40 feels like holding an oddly shaped 2x4. The M&P when held, feels like a gun.

I'm sure if I was a dedicated Glock guy I would feel differently.

I totally agree about Glocks.
Back in the day in the 1990's, Glock was pretty much the only game in town.
And I have been getting rid of them as I find good replacements.

Last fall I replaced my long held Glock 29 with a Springfield Armory XDM 10mm 3.8 Elite.

And as far as a need for a woods gun that will shoot hard cast bullets, I sold my NW Wisconsin cabin in the woods last year.
So my need for shooting hard cast has gone away.

So this M&P 10mm 4.6 is a great pistol as long as I don't try to shoot hard cast bullets through it.

 

[mark_lives_things]

Just got home from the range with my new 10mm M&P. Same problem you describe. Used only 180 grain FMJ range ammo from Sellier and Bellot, which has always worked well for me in other guns. Taking the utmost care to stay well clear of the mag release, on both sides, as well as locking the mags forcefully into place and tugging on them before firing, the magazines drop about 40% of the time. Both of the supplied mags do this. It's disheartening to read about your experience with S&W service.

It's too bad - because other than the mags falling out, it's a sweet-shooting gun!

I appreciate the report. I need to update my Medium post, still coming across more and more instances of this malfunction.

 

[Tiribulus]

S&W has had persistent problems with magazines ejecting upon firing in the M&P line. Repeated reports on this forum involving the M&P, the compact, the Shield, etc., etc. ...

I would like to see this documented. I have read more stuff and seen more videos than I can possibly count and have never seen this issue except with the 10mm version.

 

[Tiribulus]

BUT I'M STILL GOING TO KEEP TESTING TO FIND OUT WHY THE WIDE FLAT NOSED HARD CASTS HAVE TROUBLE.
I'm beginning to think it's a combination of things, and being the curious person I am, I'll have it as a project to see what I have to tweak to get it to work with flat nosed hard cast rounds.

That's what I'm talkin about

I'm the same way. I can't stand not knowing why something won't work. A firearm is a machine. A mechanical/chemical machine. It's not magic. There's always an answer.

Unfortunately, or thankfully, depending on how I look at it, I don't have the resources to do as much troubleshooting as I would if I did lol.