66Park
Member
Yes, taking all possible steps to avoid the situation is your best bet. Once someone has a gun on you, you are in real deep trouble.
Protecting yourself while carrying lots of cash?
- Thread starter ViperGeek
- Start date
In my humble opinion, the employer should provide an armed escort to the bank, or set up nightly pick up for the cash.
Leaving the same place, at the same time, going to the same destination, makes it just a matter of time before someone tries to get the cash.
I worked at a restaurant where this happened twice, in a short time, to the assistant managers who required to make deposits after hours.
Leaving the same place, at the same time, going to the same destination, makes it just a matter of time before someone tries to get the cash.
I worked at a restaurant where this happened twice, in a short time, to the assistant managers who required to make deposits after hours.
cmort666
Member
Strongarm robbery is NOT a property crime.
It is a crime against the PERSON against whom violence is used or threatened in order to unlawfully take something to which the taker is not entitled.
In Ohio, I have no DUTY to give you ANYTHING. I have the RIGHT to give you deadly force in response to the imminent threat of deadly force.
My only duties are:
People who don't want to get shot shouldn't become armed robbers. In civilized locales at least, it's dangerous.
It is a crime against the PERSON against whom violence is used or threatened in order to unlawfully take something to which the taker is not entitled.
In Ohio, I have no DUTY to give you ANYTHING. I have the RIGHT to give you deadly force in response to the imminent threat of deadly force.
My only duties are:
- Withdraw if I can do so in PERFECT SAFETY. This does NOT mean run away, only attempt to leave BEFORE using deadly force, and then only if I can do so without increasing the danger to myself in ANY way. This does NOT apply when in my vehicle or at home.
- Stop my use of deadly force once my assailant is no longer a threat, either because he has fled, submitted or been rendered incapable of doing immediate harm.
People who don't want to get shot shouldn't become armed robbers. In civilized locales at least, it's dangerous.
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feralmerril
Absent Comrade
Carrying a lot of money is a pleasure I never had. Every situation is going to be different. My life would be my first concern. Do I HAVE to try to shoot it out or not? Protecting someone else`s money would take 2nd or 3rd place. If it was MY money I might be a tad more aggressive in my decision.
I dont think I would let my wife put her life on the line every night carrying receipts for a employer. At least not like clockwork to set a pattern.
We are indocturnated from all sources to be passive and freely give up any valuables as "they aint worth your life". Generaly, that probley is true for the general populace. Overall, I am not sure I agree with the theory on my personnal basis. It preachs to be a sheep society and I suppose its got to the point that hold up artists count on it.
I have had my vehicle and house burglared at various times. I also have been cheated out of money. I never have been robbed at gun point.
My wife has. Some relatives have. My job was armed security for over 35 years. I cant recall anyone trying me out. Maybe they would have had I not been OCing. I know one thing. If it ever happens I am not going to jail for being overeager. The holdup artist better not make a mistake either.
I dont think I would let my wife put her life on the line every night carrying receipts for a employer. At least not like clockwork to set a pattern.
We are indocturnated from all sources to be passive and freely give up any valuables as "they aint worth your life". Generaly, that probley is true for the general populace. Overall, I am not sure I agree with the theory on my personnal basis. It preachs to be a sheep society and I suppose its got to the point that hold up artists count on it.
I have had my vehicle and house burglared at various times. I also have been cheated out of money. I never have been robbed at gun point.
My wife has. Some relatives have. My job was armed security for over 35 years. I cant recall anyone trying me out. Maybe they would have had I not been OCing. I know one thing. If it ever happens I am not going to jail for being overeager. The holdup artist better not make a mistake either.
66Park
Member
Yeah, we sure are. In my case, doing everything my assailant asked of me and thinking I would be ok because of that very nearly got me killed. You may need to do everything you are asked to, but never think that will make things ok. It very well won't.
mc5aw
Member
Dave ... You and your wife are very new to carrying, and should really consider getting additional training in defensive shooting. Strapping on a firearm doesn't make one qualified mindset-wise for self defense ... practice and training does. Honestly assess your respective skills, then ask each other the ultimate question: "If you were in the night-time scenario, would you feel confident in defending yourself with your handgun?" This question refers to ALL aspects of drawing and firing, from holstering, to target acquisition, to potential concealment, to dealing with gun malfunctions, to legal ramifications, to simple avoidance of the threat. If the answer is anything less than a resounding "yes", look into quality training/schools in your area asap.
Just my opinion, here. The carrier of large sums of money should always be in "condition orange." Be VERY aware of your surroundings, and don't venture into an area where you might be at risk if you can avoid it.
If you are surprised (dammit!) by an armed goblin, and he or she obviously knows you're carrying money: if it's in a bag, I'd slowly toss it away from the crook so he or she would have to divert his attention from you to get it. When that happens, I'd draw my concealed weapon and get to cover (perhaps behind a car) FAST. If the crook then approaches with a weapon, let him have it.
If it's just a common robbery of opportunity, Massad Ayoob, whom I respect, says he keeps a small amount of money in a money clip for "tossing" on the ground, and then - same tactics if you think you can manage it.
No amount of money is worth dying for. If you'd rather not try the "distract, draw and cover" technique, then hand it over with no attempt at potentially dangerous tactics. The money clip option sounds good, with no further involvement.
John
If you are surprised (dammit!) by an armed goblin, and he or she obviously knows you're carrying money: if it's in a bag, I'd slowly toss it away from the crook so he or she would have to divert his attention from you to get it. When that happens, I'd draw my concealed weapon and get to cover (perhaps behind a car) FAST. If the crook then approaches with a weapon, let him have it.
If it's just a common robbery of opportunity, Massad Ayoob, whom I respect, says he keeps a small amount of money in a money clip for "tossing" on the ground, and then - same tactics if you think you can manage it.
No amount of money is worth dying for. If you'd rather not try the "distract, draw and cover" technique, then hand it over with no attempt at potentially dangerous tactics. The money clip option sounds good, with no further involvement.
John
C.S.63
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Vipergeek, OP
first reread BigD response!!!
Situational awareness!! vary everything no routines!!
So to say if they have the drop on ya what ya gonna do?
Do Not let them get the drop on ya!!!! back to line 2
Remember in today's time the mutts are capable of anything!!
Many many years ago armored car services working in NY, NY with 3 person teams 1 would get out and survey the situation and stand with back against wall observational readiness, 1 in truck and 1 make pickup/drop off.
(This is in Broad daylight mid town Manhattan let alone East NY after dark)
If this is something that needs to be done for work regardless get some additional training and do not let anyone know that you ccw loose lips sink ships then reread this statement.
"Remember in today's time the mutts are capable of anything!"
first reread BigD response!!!
Situational awareness!! vary everything no routines!!
So to say if they have the drop on ya what ya gonna do?
Do Not let them get the drop on ya!!!! back to line 2
Remember in today's time the mutts are capable of anything!!
Many many years ago armored car services working in NY, NY with 3 person teams 1 would get out and survey the situation and stand with back against wall observational readiness, 1 in truck and 1 make pickup/drop off.
(This is in Broad daylight mid town Manhattan let alone East NY after dark)
If this is something that needs to be done for work regardless get some additional training and do not let anyone know that you ccw loose lips sink ships then reread this statement.
"Remember in today's time the mutts are capable of anything!"
Mickey D
Member
I agree with these options, moving the drop safe to #1.
Let the day shift manager make the bank deposits during normal daylight banking hours.
It's human nature to turn and look if someone yells hi to a person. Give them the $$, let them start to walk off then call to them, when they turn to face you with a weapon in hand. Well ya gotta do what ya gotta do.
I don't know if this has been suggested yet, but could you have one party stay in the store with the cash and have a second person drive up to the door for a quick cash hand off and be mobile very quickly?
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66Park
Member
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feralmerril
Absent Comrade
Trial defense arguments aside, lets talk about the real odds of letting armed criminals get away. First, I dont belive there is a "first time" with the type. And moreso, if they do get away with it, I doubt they are ever going to quit until they are locked up or killed on the job.
I think I said earlier in this thread I dont ever want to go to jail for the sake of killing someone who just robbed me. If I survive the situation and he doesnt, it will be because I thought I HAD to shoot him, or, he made a huge fatal mistake.
I think I said earlier in this thread I dont ever want to go to jail for the sake of killing someone who just robbed me. If I survive the situation and he doesnt, it will be because I thought I HAD to shoot him, or, he made a huge fatal mistake.
Blueface2
Member
Right on point.
Very well stated.
I am so surprised by the numerous comments on this thread stating inability to shoot when robbed by someone armed.
In Florida, good luck to the robber. How can anyone not fear for their life when someone robs you who is pointing a gun at you?
How can a victim be expected to think they will not be harmed once a gun is involved in the crime?
Why wouldn't you have a right to use same force?
Mr. Williams in Ocala is a perfect recent example.
Two armed guys entered a business with intent to rob and who knows what else.
Response Mr. Williams gave was drawing his .380 and shooting both perps and continued to shoot as they retreated, as they were still clearly armed.
No charges filed.
How does that differ from what OP posted?
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Robbery is a felonious assault, and you can defend yourself with deadly force. It doesn't matter if you are carrying cash or not, when you are being threated with grave physical harm. If someone snatches the bag from you, or grabs it while you're getting your keys, that's something else. You can't, in general, shoot at someone fleeing, with or without the loot.
That said, you can't draw and fire faster than someone can simply pull the trigger. Your best bet is to comply, or toss the money and run broken field for cover.
If you feel threatened but don't see a weapon, you can but your hand on the grip, or even draw, keeping your weapon concealed by your side away from the subject. Technically, that's brandishing, but if nobody sees it, it never happened. Try to get something between you and the perp (or perps). Nine times out of ten, someone bent on doing you harm will break off if you reach for a weapon. It's that tenth time that makes all the difference. What's a threat? I can't answer that either.
A three day self-defense course might be a good way to spend a vacation, along with 500-1000 rounds of ammunition.
That said, you can't draw and fire faster than someone can simply pull the trigger. Your best bet is to comply, or toss the money and run broken field for cover.
If you feel threatened but don't see a weapon, you can but your hand on the grip, or even draw, keeping your weapon concealed by your side away from the subject. Technically, that's brandishing, but if nobody sees it, it never happened. Try to get something between you and the perp (or perps). Nine times out of ten, someone bent on doing you harm will break off if you reach for a weapon. It's that tenth time that makes all the difference. What's a threat? I can't answer that either.
A three day self-defense course might be a good way to spend a vacation, along with 500-1000 rounds of ammunition.
In most, if not all states, armed robbery is classified as a Crime Against Person, not against property. It is a felonius assault employing force or threat of force in order to unlawfully, without consent, take the property of another person. In such a case the victim is placed in justifiable fear of death or grievous bodily harm and thus meets the legal requirement for employing deadly force to repel the assault.
As to whether to comply with the assailant's demand or resist in the event he already has you at gunpoint is a critical decision that can
only be made by the victim based on existing circumstances.
As to whether to comply with the assailant's demand or resist in the event he already has you at gunpoint is a critical decision that can
only be made by the victim based on existing circumstances.
elm_creek_smith
US Veteran
I've never carried lots of cash. I'm married.
My wife's company has a policy that two people in two different vehicles have to make the closing deposit. (The deposit is in only one of them.) If that is impossible, the deposit sits in the safe until the next day.
ECS
My wife's company has a policy that two people in two different vehicles have to make the closing deposit. (The deposit is in only one of them.) If that is impossible, the deposit sits in the safe until the next day.
ECS
I skipped to the end so if this has been said already, it's my fault.
Is the bad guy pointing his gun at you or at the sack of money? While it may only be "property", you are in danger if someone is pointing a gun at you to take it away. If the guy runs by and grabs the money bag, like a purse snatching, with no threat of harm to you, then it's only property. You might want to verify this with someone familiar with your local laws as different courts do some pretty stupid things.
Is the bad guy pointing his gun at you or at the sack of money? While it may only be "property", you are in danger if someone is pointing a gun at you to take it away. If the guy runs by and grabs the money bag, like a purse snatching, with no threat of harm to you, then it's only property. You might want to verify this with someone familiar with your local laws as different courts do some pretty stupid things.
OP
ViperGeek
Member
Thanks Jellybean. Your distinction is sound advice, and agrees with cmort666's summation in reply #23.
If I may be so bold, I think the major points brought up here are:
No offense to the many, many other excellent points that I may have missed in my executive summary. I'm very glad I proposed this quandary to ponder. This thread can serve as a great collection point for lots of good ideas on how and when to protect one's self when their situation/job requires them to become an attractive target to unintended violent crime.
- Dave
_____________________________________________________________
In a world of compromise, some people don't. We carry Smith & Wesson.
If I may be so bold, I think the major points brought up here are:
- Improve the situation (drop box, secure transport, random daylight pickup, erase "$$$" from sack).
- Once engaged, minimize interaction with the armed BG
- There's no need to yield helplessly, but gun pointed at sack threatens property, and gun pointed at sack holder represents mortal danger, therefore deadly force is (probably) justified.
- Break routine. Don't be predictable.
- Hope for the best, but prepare to retaliate/defend with extreme prejudice.
No offense to the many, many other excellent points that I may have missed in my executive summary. I'm very glad I proposed this quandary to ponder. This thread can serve as a great collection point for lots of good ideas on how and when to protect one's self when their situation/job requires them to become an attractive target to unintended violent crime.
- Dave
_____________________________________________________________
In a world of compromise, some people don't. We carry Smith & Wesson.
If I were a businessman who had a daily deposit of $10,000 + I would have a decent safe installed and would not expect my employees to risk their lives bringing it to the bank at that time of night, especially on a daily basis. That, to me, seems to be asking for trouble.
